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Perun
12-06-2004, 09:17 PM
http://kilden.forskningsradet.no/english/artikkel.html?vis=5012

The Viking God Odin – A queer God of War

Does Norse mythology and queer theory share any common ground? Brit Solli, archaeologist at the University of Tromsř, argues that Odin, one of the most important Viking gods, was queer – and that it is about time to reclaim the diversity that the Viking era represented both in culture and in opinion of gender. Solli writes about this and a lot more, in the interdisciplinary book Seid, Myths, Shamanism and Gender in the Viking Era.


Anne Hjort-Larsen
hjort-la@online.no

Brit Solli’s argument that Odin was queer is based on the fact that he was master of seid. Seid is the Norse form of magic. When a master of seid fell into trance or reached ecstasy, his soul transcended. He could travel to the kingdom of the dead and meet with the past, or he could look into the future. A master of seid could see and control the faith of people.

This Norse form of ecstatic magic was physical and transcended boundaries. The ecstasy could be of a sexual kind or have strong sexual undertones, and through seid you could transcend the borders of your own gender. This is why seid was considered dangerous.

Seid actions were not in accordance with the rigid gender pattern we find both in older law texts and in the Norse mythology. Strong sanctions were inflicted upon men who crossed the borders of manhood, both in the mythological world as well as in real life. Seid was a female activity. A male god who did seid could be accused of ‘ergi’, which meands unmanliness. Ergi also means soft or coward – and used sexually it means subjection. To be accused of ergi was the worst kind of insult for a man.

And yet, Odin, the God of War himself, was the greatest master of seid. How could it be that the most important of all Viking warriors undertook a woman’s task? How could he do something that was considered ergi?

- In our culture we see sexuality and gender as biology, says Brit Solli. But newer knowledge informs us that gender also is tied to culture, as well as history and social norms. Seid becomes a form of social transsexualism, transcending biological sex.

It was through seid that Odin did his most important deeds. By means of a border crossing ritual he travelled to the kingdom of the dead where he found knowledge, symbolized by runes. Disguised as a woman he managed to beget a son to avenge Balder. In Odin the most powerful male god, the War Lord, is united with the unmanly seid. During the Viking period gender transgression and queerness were despised in everyday life. But in matters of the divine, border crossing, including transgression of gender boundaries, was necessary. Odin had to be queer in other to keep up his Norse cosmos.

In the Norse cult women were ritual performers, and Frřya was the foremost of the sorceresses. According to Solli, The famous Oseberg ‘queen’ was probably not a queen in the modern sense, but a powerful sorceress who used seid and magic. Ecstasy was needed in the Norse culture and mythology. With the introduction of Christianity, the cult of ecstasy was suppressed and replaced with an ascetical cult. In the Christian culture the basic value has been an almost bodiless asceticism.

Solli maintains that Norse customs share traits with Sámi life and traditions. This is shown by archaeological findings and in the traditional Sámi ideology. As in seid, border crossing and ecstasy are vital in shamanism. No wonder that Christian leaders introduced strong prohibitions and sanctions to stop Christians from seeking help from the Sámi people.

Of course, the Christening of Norway also had some positive impacts, adds Solli. To set unwanted children out to die became illegal, and the doctrine of personal salvation was introduced.

Reclaiming the Viking era
- The Viking texts are amazing, the Solli says. But for a long time researchers did not use them. The historians held that the texts were ‘just’ magnificent literature, with little truth to them. Snorre was seen as an excellent writer, but denounced as historian. This strong criticism of the texts led researches to concentrate on analogies with distant societies, for instance Polynesian clan societies. However, researchers of history of religions and other researchers are slowly starting to show a renewed interest in the Norse texts.

Maybe the sagas – the Norse historical texts – are not true to the letter, but the cultural patterns they show can tell us a lot about the way people thought. Today there is a strong interdisciplinary interest in renewed interpretations of the Norse texts.

Brit Solli feels that the view of the Viking era has an undeserved conservative and nationalistic imprint, both in England and in the Nordic countries.

- Maybe it has been important to see it this way, because of the Scandinavian nation building. However, Solli points to negative consequences of this. Extreme right wing nationalists and neo nazis have exploited the ‘macho’ part of the Viking myth. Nor does the archaeologist favour the stereotypical image of the Viking woman as proud housewife.

- It is time to reclaim the diversity that the Viking era represented both in culture and in view of gender, Solli states. The Vikings were not like us. They belonged to a culture that was, in many ways, different and quite strange. I focus on Viking ideas of gender, sexuality and sometimes the very ecstatic practice of religion. It was really a radical cultural break when Christianity became the only accepted religion, she underlines.

For more than 150 years researchers have known that Odin, the most important god of the Vikings, acted in a way a ‘real man’ should not act.. But they have been very careful in their interpretation of this, if it has been mentioned at all. But Brit Solli has chosen a different approach!

CONSTANTINVS MAXIMVS
12-06-2004, 09:25 PM
What the hell is this for nonsense?

SteamshipTime
12-06-2004, 09:59 PM
http://www.samcci.comics.org/thor/thor.gif

Ystergarde
12-06-2004, 10:06 PM
Sacrilege. :mad:

Yeah, and Jewsus was a gay retard.

SteamshipTime
12-06-2004, 10:25 PM
I can't help it if your god likes to run around in navy blue tights and a black leotard with light blue dots.

otto_von_bismarck
12-06-2004, 11:37 PM
Odin was queer, where do you come up with this bullshit ive read nothing like that in Norse mythology.

CheTheButcher
12-06-2004, 11:58 PM
Odin had a wife. I am not an expert on this "seid" ritual, but if Odin had sexual intercourse with a woman, which he did, it crosses out the possibility of him being a homosexual.

Perun
12-07-2004, 12:12 AM
Odin had a wife. I am not an expert on this "seid" ritual, but if Odin had sexual intercourse with a woman, which he did, it crosses out the possibility of him being a homosexual.

Winifred Wagner's husband was gay yet together they had children. This is true with many homosexuals. In fact homosexuals protest this stereotype that somehow having relations with women automatically disqualifies them as being gay.

SteamshipTime
12-07-2004, 01:44 AM
Odin had a wife. I am not an expert on this "seid" ritual, but if Odin had sexual intercourse with a woman, which he did, it crosses out the possibility of him being a homosexual.

No. There a number of men who have been married and fathered children despite being homosexual. Tony Blair, for example.

Seriously, it is not an uncommon phenomenon. Gene Robinson, the Episcopal bishop of the New Hampshire diocese, for one.

Gus
12-07-2004, 01:47 AM
ST:

Brah, youre confusing Thor with Odin the Allfather. Odin's the dude with one eye, a couple of ravens, and a nasty spear.

Erzsébet Báthory
12-07-2004, 01:47 AM
Odin had a wife. I am not an expert on this "seid" ritual, but if Odin had sexual intercourse with a woman, which he did, it crosses out the possibility of him being a homosexual.
It doesn't cross out the possibility of him being a bisexual. In fact, the very idea that one must be either "heterosexual" or "homosexual" is very new -- and false.

SteamshipTime
12-07-2004, 01:49 AM
ST:

Brah, youre confusing Thor with Odin the Allfather. Odin's the dude with one eye, a couple of ravens, and a nasty spear.

Yeh, but is he cut like Thor? Well? Is he?

bardamu
12-07-2004, 02:04 AM
This is sacrilege. Throw the Christian in the peet bog.

bardamu
12-07-2004, 02:07 AM
Yeh, but is he cut like Thor? Well? Is he?

I hate to invoke the J-word, but that comic is very likely drawn by the hand of a you-know-what, which disqualifies it as evidence on the grounds that "when a jew opens his mouth, a lie comes out."

CheTheButcher
12-07-2004, 02:51 AM
Winifred Wagner's husband was gay yet together they had children. This is true with many homosexuals. In fact homosexuals protest this stereotype that somehow having relations with women automatically disqualifies them as being gay.

Did her husband have sexual intercourse with men? Odin did not.

No. There a number of men who have been married and fathered children despite being homosexual. Tony Blair, for example.

Seriously, it is not an uncommon phenomenon. Gene Robinson, the Episcopal bishop of the New Hampshire diocese, for one.

Did they have sexual intercourse with men? :confused:

It doesn't cross out the possibility of him being a bisexual. In fact, the very idea that one must be either "heterosexual" or "homosexual" is very new -- and false.

I agree.

Faust
12-07-2004, 03:07 AM
Perun,

The pre-christain Germanic Peoples delt with Sodomites and unchaste women. They were often buried alive in the nearist Peat Bog. It was a good system.

General W.T. Sherman
12-07-2004, 04:25 AM
I can't help it if your god likes to run around in navy blue tights and a black leotard with light blue dots.

To be realistic, Odin is nobody's god any more. People searching for spirituality apparently end up there often, worshipping the Norse gods and casting runes and all that silliness, but really - you know not a one of them actually believes there is a being named Odin who was hung on Ygdrassil (sp) and had his eye plucked out by a Toucan or whatever.

FadeTheButcher
12-07-2004, 04:45 AM
What did they say about this on Skadi?

Erzsébet Báthory
12-07-2004, 04:46 AM
To be realistic, Odin is nobody's god any more. People searching for spirituality apparently end up there often, worshipping the Norse gods and casting runes and all that silliness, but really - you know not a one of them actually believes there is a being named Odin who was hung on Ygdrassil (sp) and had his eye plucked out by a Toucan or whatever.
I wouldn't say "nobody's god." I'm sure there are at least a handful of people who really believe in Odin as an anthropomorphic being. People believe stranger things.

General W.T. Sherman
12-07-2004, 04:57 AM
I wouldn't say "nobody's god." I'm sure there are at least a handful of people who really believe in Odin as an anthropomorphic being. People believe stranger things.

Those handful of people are most likely loons, though. Let's be realistic.

SteamshipTime
12-07-2004, 05:01 AM
Did they have sexual intercourse with men? :confused:


Yes. In the case of Gene Robinson, he left his wife and children for his male lover. I have personal knowledge of one other such situation and have read about several others.

General W.T. Sherman
12-07-2004, 05:04 AM
Yes. In the case of Gene Robinson, he left his wife and children for his male lover. I have personal knowledge of one other such situation and have read about several others.

Hey look - the guy invented Star Trek, so anything he wants to do in his spare time is fine by me.

otto_von_bismarck
12-07-2004, 05:05 AM
That was Gene Rodenberry.

General W.T. Sherman
12-07-2004, 05:33 AM
No, you're thinking of the bassist of KISS.

otto_von_bismarck
12-07-2004, 05:59 AM
No, you're thinking of the bassist of KISS.
Read it and weep (http://www.pathcom.com/~boby/gene.htm).

CONSTANTINVS MAXIMVS
12-07-2004, 11:27 AM
That would be Gene Simmons.

To return to topic: Odin didn't take it up the ass, he was a strong male heterosexual god. The only faggot gods were the greek gods.

Perun
12-07-2004, 06:16 PM
What did they say about this on Skadi?

Well you can read the whole debate here:
http://forum.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=28083

Not very high quality, so far only atlanto-med and Oskorei have attempted to deal with this topic in an intelligent manner. The rest is simply knee-jerk replies about Christianity.

As Vinlands Hammer replied:

http://forum.skadi.net/showpost.php?p=239357&postcount=7

This article means nothing, dont serve me B.S. on toast and tell me its peanut butter.

Pompey
12-07-2004, 06:40 PM
"Odin rode a horse with eight legs named Sleipnir, an offspring of Loki (mare) and the giant stallion Svadilfari."

http://www.timelessmyths.com/norse/aesir.html

Hmm, homosexual bestiality? :|

CONSTANTINVS MAXIMVS
12-07-2004, 06:42 PM
Loki was some horse's bitch yes, it involved a bet about walling off Asgard. Sorry for all nordicists, but this is an authentic part of norse mythology.