http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1183338/posts



September 11th focused a lot of attention on the growth of Islam. What most pundits and scholars have missed is the incredible growth of Christianity, and where it's growing.

Today more Presbyterians worship in the African nation of Ghana than in Scotland. And more Anglicans worship in Nigeria than in Britain. We like to think of ourselves as the Christian West.

But there is growing evidence that the center of Christendom has moved.

Africans are running to accept Jesus Christ. It is a scene playing out all across the developing world. It may sound like an exaggeration, but it's not: Christianity is sweeping across the southern hemisphere and Asia like a tidal wave.

"The scale of Christian growth is almost unimaginable," said Dr. Philip Jenkins, distinguished professor of History and Religious Studies at Penn State University.

Jenkins shocked and probably panicked some of America's political and media elite with his acclaimed book, The Next Christendom: The Coming of Global Christianity. Jenkins argues the greatest movement of the past century was not communism or capitalism. Do the math and the winner is spirit-filled Christianity, or what he terms in his study as "Pentecostalism."

"The modern Pentecostal movement begins at the start of the 20th century," Jenkins said. "So say this begins with a few hundred, a few thousand people… today you're dealing with several hundred million people, and the best projections are by 2040’s or 2050’s, you could be dealing with a billion Pentecostals worldwide.

By that stage there will be more Pentecostals than Hindus. There are already more Pentecostals than Buddhists."

Jenkins says in just 20 years, two-thirds of all Christians will live in Africa, Latin America or Asia.

"Back in 1900, there were about 10 million Christians in Africa, representing about 10 percent of the population. Today there are 360 million, representing just under half the population. That is one of the most important changes in religious history, and I think most of us didn't notice it," he said.

A lot of people still haven't noticed it. When scandal or controversy hits an American church, the U.S. news media tends to treat it like a worldwide crisis for that denomination. But it is not a crisis for those churches in the developing world. Most of them are not gripped by debates over homosexuality or abortion — that is a problem for European and American liberals — they believe the Bible.

"The Bible is alive in Africa and Asia and Latin America," Jenkins said. "Overwhelmingly, the kind of Christianity is one which is very Bible-centered, which takes the Bible very seriously, takes authority very seriously, both the Old and the New Testament, in a way which I don't think western Christianity has done probably since the Enlightenment."

But the growth of Christianity threatens Islam, and Christians are being slaughtered in places like Nigeria and Indonesia. Jenkins thinks the conflict will intensify in nations where the two faiths compete. And he debunks the notion that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. Christianity is growing faster.

"If you look at the 25 most populous countries in the world in the mid-21st century, 20 of those are going to be divided to a greater or lesser extent between Christianity and Islam," Jenkins said.

Then there is China. There are about 80 million Christians in China, according to former Time Magazine Correspondent David Aikman, who predicts China will be a Christianized nation in 20 to 30 years. He does not predict a Christian majority, but a China that is 25 to 30 percent Christian. Enough, he says, to change society and government.

"If you have a Christianized China, the leadership of China would reflect a Christian worldview to some degree," Aikman said. "A China that's Christianized would not be a threat to the United States."

And Aikman says the Chinese church leaders have a burden to take the gospel the rest of the way across the globe, to the Muslims.

"It's part of a sense that they call ‘back to Jerusalem,’" Aikman said. "They believe that just as the gospel originally came out of Jerusalem and went to the West and to North America and Europe and came to China, now the Chinese need to bring it back to Jerusalem, not in the sense of evangelizing the Jewish, but in the sense of completing the circle so that the gospel message is available to everybody in the world."

Imagine Chinese reaching the Muslims, Koreans evangelizing Indians, Africans taking the gospel back to a largely godless Europe.

African Matthew Ashimolowo is the pastor of the fastest growing church in England. "God is sending people who used to receive missionaries to now be missionaries around the world," Ashimolowo said.

Kenyan Bishop Gilbert Dya has one of the largest churches in London. "I am in this country, believing that God sent me here in Great Britain to make a voice on His behalf to let them know that they need to repent and come back to God," he said.

The developing world is not only a growing base for world missions, Jenkins says it is becoming the center of Christendom…again. "Jesus said His church would last until the end of time. He never used the word, ‘Europe.’ Christianity is returning, I think, to its roots. It is a religion that originated in the Middle East and in Africa. Perhaps it went away for a while, but now it's back," Jenkins said.

"Europe is the Church, and the Church is Europe.....Europe will return to the
Faith, or she will perish. The Faith is Europe. And Europe is the Faith."
--Hilaire Belloc Europe and the Faith

"If you look at the 25 most populous countries in the world in the mid-21st century, 20 of those are going to be divided to a greater or lesser extent between Christianity and Islam," Jenkins said.

Then there is China. There are about 80 million Christians in China, according to former Time Magazine Correspondent David Aikman, who predicts China will be a Christianized nation in 20 to 30 years. He does not predict a Christian majority, but a China that is 25 to 30 percent Christian. Enough, he says, to change society and government.

"If you have a Christianized China, the leadership of China would reflect a Christian worldview to some degree," Aikman said. "A China that's Christianized would not be a threat to the United States."

A christianized China would be more of a threat, Eastern philosphy is far more introverted in nature just like Chinese foreign policy historically.

I thought that China was predominantly muslim. It would be interesting if Christianity grew there, as it would counter the influence of Islam. After all, it is leaning towards the West a lot more than it used to.

They call themselves communists. Hah!

Africans are running to accept Jesus Christ. It is a scene playing out all across the developing world. It may sound like an exaggeration, but it's not: Christianity is sweeping across the southern hemisphere and Asia like a tidal wave.

It is very easy to turn to religion when you are in a bad situation. The true test of Christian faith is believing during the good times as well as the bad.

Do not underestimate Christianity in Europe... it is still there.

I thought that China was predominantly muslim.

LOL, why would you think that?

I thought that China was predominantly muslim.

LOL, they're buddhist( and some taoist) not moon worshipping ragheads.

China's dominant 'religions' are Confucianism and Taoism actually. You both suck :p

I thought that China was predominantly muslim.

LOL, they're buddhist( and some taoist) not moon worshipping ragheads.

How do Muslims worship the moon? It's just a symbol for them.

Inferior people will thing the Tao sucks, so sayeth the Tao :D.

Confucianism is even more purely philosophical then the Tao( the Tao at least gives a vague cosmology on the "root of heaven and earth"). Buddhism is more popular then Taoism( although their relationship is non adverserial now) last I checked.

How do Muslims worship the moon? It's just a symbol for them.
1. Allah did before the advent of Islam used to be a Moon God

2. I just like imitating the prose of Al Swearengen( who calls the Indians the "Dirt Worshippers")

1. Allah did before the advent of Islam used to be a Moon God


This is why the symbol of Islam is still the Crescent Moon. Allah was just a local pagan deity that Muhammad decided was "supreme" the same way the Jews randomly decided that their barbaric little tribal god was "supreme."

Anyway, reality check:

Christianity made a lot of European barbarians into coherent kingdoms. Perhaps it can do the same for third-world Africans, Asians, Americans etc. ( providing that racial theories about superiority and inferiority are a load of crap, as I suspect ).

Christianity is effectively pro-race mixing. ( Perun, no need to whip out quotes from the bible, this is not a pissing contest, the bible is one thing, practising Christianity's effects are a whole different matter ).

Christianity will cause previously tame and introverted nations ( like China ) to become more active players.

My verdict: if Christianity ( and Islam ) expand so much, then we ( the Europeans ) are in deep ****.

What do you think about that?

(providing that racial theories about superiority and inferiority are a load of crap, as I suspect ).

:confused:

AWAR,

Europe and the US are in their current stage of politically-correct, multi-culti rot precisely because they are secular and no longer Christian.

I think it's so precisely because they were christian.

I think it's so precisely because they were christian.

Compare Christian Europe and the US to post-Christian Europe and the US. Understand too, the liberalization of Christian theology in the 1960's is part of the process of secularization.

Christianity is effectively pro-race mixing. ( Perun, no need to whip out quotes from the bible, this is not a pissing contest, the bible is one thing, practising Christianity's effects are a whole different matter ).

Really? Perhaps I can quote Adrian Hastings again, were he proves that Christianity's ban on inter-faith marriages very quickly in practice turned to a ban against race-mixing. Hastings also provides evidence of how found pre-Christian societies were of mixing with other peoples. Hell it was quite common to steal your wife from the neighboring tribe/people. Christianity helped bring that practice to an end and encouraged people to marry within their own tribe/people.

I can also quote Anthony D. Smith from his latest book, where he states that Christianity helped reinforce many European peoples sense of ethnicity.

Your knee-jerk assertions about Christianity cannot be found on sound evidence AWAR. :rolleyes:

I think it's so precisely because they were christian.

Care to back this assertion up with evidence? :rolleyes:

Care to back this assertion up with evidence? :rolleyes:

We are all God's children. :p

Really? Perhaps I can quote Adrian Hastings again, were he proves that Christianity's ban on inter-faith marriages very quickly in practice turned to a ban against race-mixing.

When and where?

Hastings also provides evidence of how found pre-Christian societies were of mixing with other peoples. Hell it was quite common to steal your wife from the neighboring tribe/people. Christianity helped bring that practice to an end and encouraged people to marry within their own tribe/people.

What is the origin of half-breed races like the Metis and Mestizos?

Two solutions that can lead to a religiously independent Europe: either Orthodox Christianity assimilates Europe, or 'God is dead' for Europe, and something else replaces it.

I think it's so precisely because they were christian.
I agree. Secularisation never really eliminated Christianity, only belief in God. Christianity simply degenerated into something even more disgusting. Its not so much Christianity that is the problem as it is Christianity's ghost.

Christianity simply degenerated into something even more disgusting. Its not so much Christianity that is the problem as it is Christianity's ghost.
And I agree with that. Speaking in regard to America, at least, Christianity is another marketed thing, that people are "into". They're into Jesus as they are into feng shui etc. or they are fundies who come up with the weirdest notions about being "religious". Christianity is not about culture anymore, it's more like the lack of it. People talk about "Church shopping" or "Synagogue shopping", they fill out questionaires to find the suitable church for them, they change denominations every few years and what's more irritating -for me, anyway- is how religion is something people boast about, or something they identify themselves with. It's like those people who sign e-mails as "Jane. Mom to Nick (2) and Dave (5)". Why should I care if Jane is mother to whom just as I wouldn't care what the person I've just met *believes* in. But for some reason people love to flash their religion, their philosophies. They buy "Catholicism for Dummies" books or "Teen Wicca" kits and become one thing one day and another the next. I think it's very much about mass consumerism the way religion is perceived today, especially in America. It reminds me of plastic statues of Jesus and Mary painted in glow-in-the-dark colors, radio stations who broadcast sermons and then ask grade school questions to listeners and rosary t-shirts in tye dye. Honestly.

We are all God's children. :p

True, though one would think that God should have had an abortion many times.

And I agree with that. Speaking in regard to America, at least, Christianity is another marketed thing, that people are "into". They're into Jesus as they are into feng shui etc. or they are fundies who come up with the weirdest notions about being "religious". Christianity is not about culture anymore, it's more like the lack of it. People talk about "Church shopping" or "Synagogue shopping", they fill out questionaires to find the suitable church for them, they change denominations every few years and what's more irritating -for me, anyway- is how religion is something people boast about, or something they identify themselves with. It's like those people who sign e-mails as "Jane. Mom to Nick (2) and Dave (5)". Why should I care if Jane is mother to whom just as I wouldn't care what the person I've just met *believes* in. But for some reason people love to flash their religion, their philosophies. They buy "Catholicism for Dummies" books or "Teen Wicca" kits and become one thing one day and another the next. I think it's very much about mass consumerism the way religion is perceived today, especially in America. It reminds me of plastic statues of Jesus and Mary painted in glow-in-the-dark colors, radio stations who broadcast sermons and then ask grade school questions to listeners and rosary t-shirts in tye dye. Honestly.

I hate to say it but you have a good point. In the bible Jesus teaches not to boast about being Christian, to give money to charity and not tell anyone about it etc. Christianity is getting too consumerised, though sometimes you would wonder why people would be proud of it (*cough- catholics*).

Only God can tell who are true Christians and who are "fakers" and people can only know about themselves which of the two they are. If you are a Christian when you are alone (from people) then I believe that is a start.

I think that Christianity in it's real-world form ( not what philosophers or christians themselves think of it ) is largely a dead religion. It's not anymore the main current that sets history, it's not even a catalyst, it's not a trendsetter or a pacesetter, it's not even adapted well to the times and needs of our race.

I understand that some of you love it out of this or that reason. Personally, I love to look at the frescoes and I adore the imagery of orthodox christianity, but when I look at all that, I see nothing but doom for my people. With Christianity, future is not bright. It's charming as a pictoresque tradition, and as just one pillar of identity of many nations, but Christianity in the future will cause much harm to us.

Mind you, future isn't bright the way it is, but, at least we can shed off the irrational from everything. Religion, Nationalist ideology, philosophy... everything.

- "Its not so much Christianity that is the problem as it is Christianity's ghost."

The Bible itself clearly says (it deals with humanist objections very forthrightly, just check Job and Ecclesiastes) that those who apostasize from Christianity will be worse off than if they had never entered it:

2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

2 Peter 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.


- "Secularisation never really eliminated Christianity, only belief in God."


2) You seem to have a very "Catholic" idea about Christianity - that it is some external, visible organisation. As an Evangelical, I believe in the "invisible Church", and have sometimes flirted with the Calvinist idea of predestination of saints.

Anyways, since true Christianity is not connected to any external organisation that have monopolies on distributing sacraments, it cannot be really "destroyed" by destroying those organisations. Call it a theological version of "leaderless resistance" and independent fighting cells.


Petr

When and where?

When I have time I'll quote Hastings on this.



What is the origin of half-breed races like the Metis and Mestizos?

And what are the origins of Eskimos in Northeastern Canada with blond hair, blue eyes, and significant Nordic features? :rolleyes:

I think that Christianity in it's real-world form ( not what philosophers or christians themselves think of it ) is largely a dead religion.

And what is your evidence for this? I found a real good book that even critiqued this notion and exposed the superficial evidence that is used to prove that Christianity is dead/dying.

Christianity's death has been predicted many times before and those predictions were wrong. Even in the recent book I just purchased by Smith, he notes that religion continues to play an important role in nation's identities, even in this "post-national" secularist age.

True Christianity was dead at birth.
What "Christianity" we had since is something else, if in the last 2000+ years it didn't do what it preached, I think it's a fine time to put it to rest.

Most race-mixing, India, Grenland, South America... it all happened because these were conquests achieved by males. The DNA data clearly shows that the paternal ancestry of all these mixed races are from the conquerors. It's a natural law, not a confession-related issue.

The only reason why I mentioned christianity as failing to prevent race-mixing is because for months now, I've been reading weak attempts of Christians who try to mix their religion with racialism, and that's impossible.

True Christianity was dead at birth.

How exactly?


What "Christianity" we had since is something else, if in the last 2000+ years it didn't do what it preached, I think it's a fine time to put it to rest.


And how was Christianity "something else"? You have proven time and time again your ignorance of Christianity, its teachings, and even how its been practiced; so I do doubt the validity of your statement!


Most race-mixing, India, Grenland, South America... it all happened because these were conquests achieved by males.

Greenland? Yeah that was because of your proud pagan Vikings. In fact the Vikings were quite fond of inter-marryining into the native populations wherever they went. In fact thats common with any conquerors, whether Greek, Persian, Roman, Viking, Mongol, etc. Religion has very little to do with it. Nice try at making another knee-jerk at Christianity. :rolleyes:



The only reason why I mentioned christianity as failing to prevent race-mixing is because for months now, I've been reading weak attempts of Christians who try to mix their religion with racialism, and that's impossible.

:rolleyes: You have yet to prove your assertions AWAR, except with these pathetic knee-jerks! **** I can provide two mainstream sources(one written by an extreme liberal Catholic and a big time ******-lover) to back up my assertions that they are indeed compatible!

You obviously don't understand what I said.
I don't have time to explain every detail.

And what are the origins of Eskimos in Northeastern Canada with blond hair, blue eyes, and significant Nordic features? :rolleyes:

What does that have to do with what I said? I was not claiming that pre-Christian peoples didn't 'mix around'. But for the hell of it:

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/10/28/inuit_blond031028

Can some of you Christians please explain to me what Christianity has to do with Europe or people of the caucasian race? From what I have read, Christianity took off in Europe by accident during times of turmoil in Europe and from the East like Anatolia, now Moslim, and Greece. It prospered in Europe due to Saul of Tarsus and his insistence that Europeans did not have to follow silly food fads or cut skin off their penises in order to be a Christian. Also that pagan, Constantine who never really converted, was instrumental in the religion becoming acceptable in Europe. Saul of Tarsus and Constantine are the reasons for Christianity becoming European and not remaining another obscure Asian religion. I am European and I cannot see how an Asian belief of a young age of 2 ky, and much less in most parts of Europe, has to do with me. My ancestors believed in lots of things which were homegrown and equally valid to making life comfortable or meaningful. I don't know about you folks but my ancestry in Europe goes back more than 40 ky and I can't see any reason to include Christianity as part of my inheritance. Christianity in Europe has lead to the destruction of ethnic groups: Ostrogoths, Picts, Latini.....it is a long list of lost people, languages and cultures. It is the reason that Europeans have trodden on the wrong paths of liberalism, multiculturism, loss of male/female roles and value of family.

Well Graeme, I'll answer to you in a " grand perspective" kind of way. I know that Biblical arguments won't mean much to an un-initiated non-believer like yourself.


The God of the Bible is not just some provincial God - He is the Creator and ultimate owner of all the world. He has promised in His revealed Word that those peoples that will obey His commandments shall prosper, and those that reject it will be devastated, as European post-Christian peoples are now withering away as their hedonistic lifestyle devastates their birthrates.

In other words, Christian missionaries are not gong to ask you (or anyone else) whether of not you would feel warm and fuzzy about the idea of becoming Christians - they just declare that it is the way that Creator of this world (of Asia, Africa as well of Europe) wants people to honor him.

All truly powerful religious movements are intolerant and aggressive - it is a sign of genuine "will to power".


I also think you may not be able to fully appreciate the way your (and mine) pagan ancestors thought about Christianity, even when you think you can identify with their way of thinking. In those days, people respected a successful conqueror - there was not that kind of petty "Holocaust survivor"-style of resentment that Jews have made fashionable nowadays.

The mere fact that Christianity managed to take hold on your ancestors justified its takeover for them - a self-justifying process.

In spite of occasional clashes that involved imperial conquest like with Saxons (you can blame pagan Roman heritage for that ideology), the overwhelming majority of Europeans accepted Christianity quite happily - unlike, say, Haitian Blacks that have remained as pagans for all practical purposes.

The very fact that Saxons ultimately didn't behave like Haitians did but instead took Christianity to their heart shows it was not truly alien to them.

In the "Haitian scenario" they would have just adopted few shallow rituals to appease their conquerors, would have continued to live as de facto pagans, and after the collapse of Charlemagne's empire would have returned to their earlier lifestyle. The fact that they didn't shows how deeply Christianity had penetrated them - they would have laughed at the idea of returning to paganism.


Read Richard Steigmann-Gall's "The Holy Reich: Nazi Conceptions of Christianity, 1919-1945".

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0521823714/202-4306573-9587826

It shows how even some very determinated neo-pagans in the Third Reich were not really able to shake off their Christian heritage and ways of thinking, even when they wanted to act as "pagan" as possible.


PS: I do not agree with your idea that Paul and Constantine were necessary for Christianity to overcome - if not for them, God would have used some other instruments.)

PSS: What are talking about - that Christianity is to blame that Ostrogoths and Picts are no longer with us? What kind of blather is that? As Perun can tell you, Christianity was the ideology that formed European nations. Or are you advocating some petty-tribalism?)


Petr

Petr, all this discussion looks pretty moot so long as Christianity is dead in Europe. Is there any way European Christianity can become a serious force again?

- Miss:

Oh ye of little faith.

This is why you heathen can never pull Western civilization out of this mess.

At the bottom of it, you are nihilists without Faith - faith in god, faith in mankind, and ultimately no faith in White man and your own abilities. You don't really have that mentality that makes people able to move mountains and keep fighting in seemingly desperate situations.

Individual Christians will never stop fighting for their vision, even after their political structures have been broken, unlike heathen, for they know that
this world and its outward pomp will not be all that there is.

Let's face it - pagans don't really have this tradition of martyrdom and surviving under oppression, "keeping the flame alive". Some of them may know how to die with honor, but that's it.

And may put out this stern comment: should White race ever really collectively turn its back on Jesus Christ, it will have sealed its doom. It shall deserve to go down the drain.


E. Michael Jones, a traditional Catholic and a genuine intellectual army of one has some nice citations here from Theodore Roosevelt, opponent of WASP "race suicide", addressing (de facto) apostate ex-Christians:

http://www.culturewars.com/2002/potter.html


"It was un-American, from Roosevelt’s point of view to have a small family, something he expressed in no uncertain terms to a group of liberal Protestant theologians in 1911:

"If you do not believe in your own stock enough to wish to see the stock kept up, then you are not good Americans, you are not patriots, and . . . I for one shall not mourn your extinction; and in such event I shall welcome the advent of a new race that will take your place because you will have shown that you are not fit to cumber the ground.”

“I, for one,” Roosevelt wrote in his review of the book Racial Decay, “would heartily throw in my fate with the men of alien stock who were true to the old American principles rather than with the men of the old American stock who were traitors to the old American principles.”


For your information, those "old American principles" most definitely included Christianity - Roosevelt fundamentally agreed with Hilaire Belloc that Europe would either return to Faith or perish.

Really, the only way you can really appreciate human beings, White race included, is to see them as an image of God, even if fallen ones. No-one that really begins to believe that his/her own people are ultimately just hairless apes will find strength to go on.


PS: And the existence of myself alone would prove your assertion that "Christianity is dead in Europe" incorrect.


Petr