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Sarah
01-01-2005, 07:20 PM
ROMAN CATHOLICISM: AN UNBIBLICAL RELIGION
by Dr. Ken Matto

The Roman Catholic Church has been around for about 1700 years. With each passing year they continue to grow more apostate. They are not a Christian denomination but instead could easily be categorized as a cult. Actually a cult of the virgin would be more accurate. Throughout history, heathen cultures have always been fascinated with the idea of a goddess. Let me list a few:

Isis - Egypt
Shing Moo - China
Parameta - Hindu (many others also)
Diana - Ephesians
The Celestial Virgin - Blavatsky - New Age
Mary - Roman Catholicism
Ishtar - Babylon


In the book of Jeremiah God gives serious warning to those engaged in the cult of the goddesses. Let us look at 4 verses in Jeremiah which were written about 630 BC which would place it about 1000 years before the Roman Catholic Church was started. At this point God was already warning those involved in this cult worship that they were under the judgment of God.

(Jer 7:18 KJV) The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.

(Jer 44:17-19 KJV) But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil. {18} But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine. {19} And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven, and poured out drink offerings unto her, did we make her cakes to worship her, and pour out drink offerings unto her, without our men?

(Jer 44:25 KJV) Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, saying; Ye and your wives have both spoken with your mouths, and fulfilled with your hand, saying, We will surely perform our vows that we have vowed, to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her: ye will surely accomplish your vows, and surely perform your vows.

As we continue to read in these verses, we see the judgment that God decreed on Judah for their incessant desire to serve the false goddesses instead of Jehovah God. Notice how God uses the term "queen of heaven" in these verses in His condemnation of this abominable practice. The Roman Catholics refer to Mary as queen of heaven. This is nothing but the perpetuation of that heresy and the continuation of cultic practices from ancient times. The modern practice is just as abominable as the Babylonian practice.

The format of this essay will be simple. I will list the Roman Catholic practice, the year it was instituted and then give a verse of Scripture to see if the practice will stand under the eye of Scripture.

310
Prayers for the dead and the sign of the cross. It is believed the practice of prayers for the dead may date back to 200 AD.

(Heb 9:27 KJV) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

375
Veneration of angels and deceased saints began.

(Psa 29:2 KJV) Give unto the LORD the glory due unto his name; worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness.

394
The daily mass was instituted.

(Heb 10:11-12 KJV) And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: {12} But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

432
The worship of Mary is instituted. The term "Mother of God" originated at the council of Ephesus and was bestowed upon Mary.

(1 Tim 2:5 KJV) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

(Isa 45:5 KJV) I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

500
Priests began to dress differently from the laity thus putting on a religious exterior.

(Rev 2:6 KJV) But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

The word "Nicolaitans" comes from two Greek words "nikao" which means "conqueror" and "laos" which means "people." When the two words are combined, it means "conqueror of the people." God hates this error because the clergy have built themselves into a self-appointed elitist class with the belief that the people in the pews are dumb and that they must do all their thinking for them. In this way the clergy conquer the people by conquering their mind. The Catholic Priests have absolute mind domination over the naive Catholics in the pews. How else could they instill belief in the people that they can forgive sins and cause the eucharistic elements to turn into the actual blood and body of Christ?


593
The doctrine of Purgatory was adopted.

(Heb 9:27 KJV) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

(2 Cor 5:8 KJV) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

600
The Latin language was imposed upon the mass by Gregory I.

(2 Cor 3:12 KJV) Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

606
Boniface III receives the title of "Universal Bishop" and thus became the first Pope.

(1 Pet 2:25 KJV) For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls. (Speaking of Christ)

650
Feasts commemorating the Virgin Mary began.

See Jeremiah 7:18; 44:17-19,25 at the beginning of this study.

709
The kissing of the Pope’s foot began.

(Psa 2:12 KJV) Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

754
The temporal power of the Popes began. This was the belief that the Popes were allowed to own vast areas of land which were untouchable by anyone else. This practice was never refuted because it is based upon the document known as the "Donation of Constantine." He believed that he was healed by the miraculous powers emanating from the Bishop of Rome. He then rewarded the Pope with gifts of land. This practice was continued without hesitation.

(Psa 24:1 KJV) A Psalm of David. The earth is the LORD'S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.

788
The worship of relics and images established.

(Exo 20:4-5 KJV) Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: {5} Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

847
The Decretals of Isidore were used by the Pope to claim supremacy within the church. These decretals are closely associated with the Donation of Constantine in matter of principle. They both increased the power and wealth of the Popes.

(Luke 22:24-26 KJV) And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest. {25} And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. {26} But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.

854
Holy water introduced which was a mixture of water and a small amount of salt. It was blessed by the priest.

(Jer 2:13 KJV) For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.

890
The veneration of St. Joseph began.

(Rev 19:10 KJV) And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

965
The baptism of the bells was introduced. The baptism of bells was accomplished in the following manner. The bells were first washed with holy water and then they were anointed on both the inside and the outside with holy oil. Then prayer is said over the bells, the essence of the prayer is this, every time the bells ring the evil spirits would be driven away and God’s people will come to prayer.

(Mark 1:27 KJV) And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine is this? for with authority commandeth he even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him.

993
Canonization of dead saints introduced.

(Psa 30:4 KJV) Sing unto the LORD, O ye saints of his, and give thanks at the remembrance of his holiness.

This psalm was written about 1300 years before the Roman Catholic system came into being. God calls His true believers saints and does not recognize human canonization of anyone.

998
Fasting on Friday and during Lent was introduced.

(1 Tim 4:3 KJV) Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

1003
Feasts for the dead initiated.

(Col 1:18 KJV) And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

1075
Celibacy of the priesthood declared. It was the greatest mass divorce in the history of priests which were married.

(1 Tim 4:3 KJV) Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

As we continue on our chronology, are you beginning to see how religiously deceived these poor people are?

1076
The doctrine of the infallibility of the Roman Catholic Church was declared.

(Rom 3:23 KJV) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

1090
The Rosary (prayer beads) introduced. It was a copy of ritual from both Hindus and Mohammedans.

(Mat 6:7 KJV) But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

1100
Money demanded for Masses.

(Ezek 22:27 KJV) Her princes in the midst thereof are like wolves ravening the prey, to shed blood, and to destroy souls, to get dishonest gain.

1140
The doctrine of the seven sacraments. They are: baptism, penance, the Eucharist, confirmation, matrimony, holy orders, anointing of the sick (formerly known as extreme unction.)

(Gal 2:16 KJV) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

The same principle applies as no one is saved by church ritual as well as the law.

1184
The Inquisition began on a directive by the council of Verona. Between the years 1200 and 1800 many millions were murdered for their faith.

(2 Tim 2:24 KJV) And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

1190
The sales of indulgences commenced. It was this practice which triggered the Protestant Reformation.

(Mat 25:46 KJV) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

1200
The wafer substituted for bread in the Lord’s Supper.

(Mat 26:26 KJV) And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.

1215
The doctrine of Transubstantiation was decreed by Innocent III. Transubstantiation teaches that during the mass, the wafer turns into the actual body of Christ and the wine becomes the actual blood of Christ.

(1 Cor 11:23-26 KJV) For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: {24} And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. {25} After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. {26} For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come.

The question which must be posed is when Christ spoke of His body and blood, where was he standing? He was standing in His physical body at this time, therefore, He could not have been offering His physical body and blood as the elements. It is therefore biblical to conclude that the Doctrine of Transubstantiation is an esoteric and ungodly, cannibalistic doctrine.

1215
Oral confession installed.

(Mark 2:7 KJV) Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

This practice dates from the ancient Babylonians. When the priest heard a nice juicy confession, they used it as a means of blackmail.

1216
The bloody Inquisition spreads to France.

(Exo 20:13 KJV) Thou shalt not kill.

1220
The adoration of the wafer (host) commenced.

(Psa 106:36 KJV) And they served their idols: which were a snare unto them.

1229
The Bible was forbidden to be read by the laymen and was placed on the forbidden book list by the Council of Valencia.

(2 Tim 3:16-17 KJV) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: {17} That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

171 out of 176 verses in Psalm 119 mention the life changing message of the Scriptures.

1287
The Scapular was invented. It is a brown piece of cloth with a picture of the Virgin Mary on it. It is supposed to protect from all dangers when worn next to the naked skin.

(Psa 16:1 KJV) Preserve me, O God: for in thee do I put my trust.

1303
Papal Bull Unam Sanctum was issued. It declared that salvation and remission of sins could not be obtained outside the Roman Catholic Church and that the Pope had temporal and spiritual authority over all. Deference to the Pope was required to obtain salvation.

(John 14:6 KJV) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

(Acts 4:12 KJV) Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

1316
The Ava Maria was composed.

(Psa 95:1 KJV) O come, let us sing unto the LORD: let us make a joyful noise to the rock of our salvation.

1415
The communion cup was denied to the laity.

(Mat 26:27 KJV) And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;

1439
The dogma of purgatory was declared as a tenet of faith by the Council of Florence.

(2 Pet 2:9 KJV) The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

1478
The bloody Inquisition spreads to Spain.

(Exo 20:13 KJV) Thou shalt not kill.

Do you know anyone who is caught up in this system? They need to know they have been deceived by their leaders. There is no assurance of salvation for any Catholic as it is only found in the Lord Jesus Christ and they must know this. If they do not listen to you, their blood will be on their own head. You have done your job by warning them.

1545
The Council of Trent declares that Roman Catholic tradition is equal to the authority of Scripture. Justification by faith alone is condemned.

(Mark 7:7-9 KJV) Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. {8} For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. {9} And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

1546
The Council of Trent added the Apocryphal books to the Bible and declared them as equal authority as the traditional 66 books.

(Rev 22:18 KJV) For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

1547
The Council of Trent declares that the seven sacraments shall become an article of faith in Roman Catholicism.

(Mat 15:9 KJV) But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

1854
The Immaculate Conception of Mary proclaimed. This means that Mary was as sinless as Christ.

(Rom 3:10 KJV) As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

(Luke 1:46-47 KJV) And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, {47} And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

1870
Papal Infallibility declared.

(1 John 1:8 KJV) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1908
Pius X encyclical declares that marriages between two Catholics or a Catholic and Protestant are null and void unless performed by a priest.

(Mat 19:6-7 KJV) Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

1931
Pius XI reconfirms the doctrine that Mary is the Mother of God.

(Isa 43:10-11 KJV) Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. {11} I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

1950
The doctrine of the assumption of the Virgin Mary was proclaimed by Pius XII.

(John 5:28-29 KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, {29} And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

1954
Mary proclaimed Queen of Heaven.

See Jeremiah 7:18; 44:17-19,25 for information on this abominable practice. The queen of heaven was Ishtar of the Babylonians and was a fertility cult. It was also Astarte or Ashtoreth which was a Canaanite goddess of sexual love, maternity, and fertility. All these were abominable practices in God’s sight just as the continuation of these cultic goddesses in the modern form of Mary.

1965
Mary proclaimed mother of the church.

(Eph 5:23 KJV) For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

(Gal 4:26 KJV) But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

This passage must be studied in its context but this verse simply means that all Christians are born by the body of Christ which is portrayed as the free or new Jerusalem which is the body of believers. We have become saved because another Christian witnessed to us in some manner. There is no doctrine alluding to the error of Mary being the mother of the church. This is just another erroneous dogma.

-----------------------------------

Those who are in the Roman Catholic Church are severely deceived by this system. They are not heaven bound and this can be borne out by taking their teachings and comparing them to Scripture. Scripture is the final authority not papal bulls or dogma.

There is a movement within the Protestant church to bring us back to Rome. It is being led by such traitors as Chuck Colson. His book "the Body" is an apologetic for the Catholic Church. Chuck also loathes the term ‘Born Again." He is undoing the Reformation with a renegade priest named Richard Neuhaus. Colson admits to attending mass. He should not be supported.

Other traitors to Christ are: Billy Graham, Jack Van Impe, Pat Robertson, Benny Hinn, Paul and Jan Crouch, Harold Bredesen, James Robison, Oliver North, Bill Bright, Robert Schuller, Richard Land, Larry Lewis, Oral Roberts. The Prince of Peace Society in California wanted to crown Pope John Paul II as "Prince of Peace." These traitors endorse it and wanted to be there when it happens.

Many of the Billy Graham converts at his crusades are handed over to the Catholic Church. He will not preach a crusade unless it is ecumenical. While in prison, Jim Bakker had a Catholic priest as his spiritual advisor. As you can see many of the so-called Christian Leaders are nothing more than traitors to the cause of Christ. I know Protestant clergy who crave the power and control the catholic priests have over their congregations. When you meet a clergyman with a title like Very Rev. or Right Rev. then you have met a catholic sympathizer.

These traitors who want to worship the pope so bad should do it with their own money and without anyone’s donations. In other words, do not support them. Let them go bankrupt and go out and work for a living. The problem is those in the pews refuse to raise any questions. Many of these so called "evangelical" and "fundamental" churches are leaning left and the clergy are leading it and narcoleptic, pew warmers are letting it happen.

(Ezek 22:25-26 KJV) There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey; they have devoured souls; they have taken the treasure and precious things; they have made her many widows in the midst thereof. {26} Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they showed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.

Clergy who support Rome should be fired instantly and bodily tossed out of the church. If they love Rome, let them join the Catholic Church. Every church should have a committee comprised of Christians who have no allegiance to the leadership, in other words, they are not the pastor’s inner circle. They should scrutinize the pastor and leaders to see what they are reading, who they are socializing with to keep them on track. If church leaders knew they could not get away with spiritual prostitution, they would not be so eager to accept the ecumenical lie under the guise of "love." Biblical love is found in 2 John 6 which states that is keeping God’s commandments.

(2 John 1:6 KJV) And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

I hope you realize that God does not take spiritual prostitution lightly, it was this which caused Israel and Judah to go into captivity. The modern church is ready to go into captivity also. It is time to starve para-church ministries which are traitorous to the cause of Christ and to hold church leaders accountable for not only their actions but their beliefs also. Last one out turn off the light!!

Source (http://www.scionofzion.com/rc.htm)

Erzsébet Báthory
01-01-2005, 07:20 PM
Jews wrote the Bible. I thought you were an antisemite, Sarah? :p

Sarah
01-01-2005, 07:27 PM
I'm a Fundamentalist Unitarian Quaker Mohammedan Abrahamist. Everyone is going to hell except for me.

Ebusitanus
01-01-2005, 10:55 PM
Is it not great? Catholicism if anything is truly a totally watered down Jewish cult by centuries of adaptation to indigenous european heathen cults and general culture.
Protestantism on the contrary cleaned most of this european add on to bring it back to its Jewish roots.

CONSTANTINVS MAXIMVS
01-01-2005, 11:04 PM
Ebus, out of curiosity (I know you're not religious at the moment), but what religion were your parents and how much of it rubbed off on you?

Ebusitanus
01-01-2005, 11:07 PM
Both Evangelic protestant.

Lenny
01-01-2005, 11:21 PM
It's very easy to refute Catholicism as a false religion made-up over the centuries by corrupt lunatics and other fanatics.

--------
I'm a...MohammedanActually, speaking of Islam: Islam and Catholicism are in many ways similiar. Both are works-based B.S. religions that have historically repressed thought, freedom, and development, and both have inspired one hell of a lot of violence, deaths, holy war, tortures, slaughters of heretics, etc. and both have been a menace to the West throughout history. I'm sure there are plenty of other comparisons as well, but I'm in a hurry here

CONSTANTINVS MAXIMVS
01-01-2005, 11:24 PM
A menace to the West? The West wouldn't even exist without Catholicism.

Ystergarde
01-02-2005, 12:03 AM
A menace to the West? The West wouldn't even exist without Catholicism.

The West existed long before Jesus was even born.

CONSTANTINVS MAXIMVS
01-02-2005, 12:09 AM
And would have perished in the 8th century at the hands of the moors without Catholicism.

AntiYuppie
01-02-2005, 12:09 AM
Is it not great? Catholicism if anything is truly a totally watered down Jewish cult by centuries of adaptation to indigenous european heathen cults and general culture.
Protestantism on the contrary cleaned most of this european add on to bring it back to its Jewish roots.

Exactly. From a cultural perspective, Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy are preferable to Protestantism (particularly Calvinism) in that they take Christianity farther away from its Jewish roots and have been more fully inculturated with European ideas and symbols.

Protestantism, if anything, is an attempt to re-introduce the very alien, Semitic elements that classical Christianity worked for centuries to purge from its belief systems and rituals.

Erzsébet Báthory
01-02-2005, 12:24 AM
There is no necessary contradiction between "Jew" and "European" or "Jew" and "White." It is easy to find Jews who are much whiter than half of Stormfront.

Also, neither branch of Christianity is any more or less Jewish. Jews have been integral to Christendom from the beginning. The typical Jew in medieval Europe lived better than the average gentile peasant. Jews were instrumental in keeping the feudal machinery running. It was typical for a prince or king to have 'Court Jews' and such.

It is true that the Catholic Church banned the Bible for many centuries. Yet Jewish thought was still influential in Catholic Church, it just flowed more from the top down than bottom up.

Ystergarde
01-02-2005, 12:29 AM
So, let me get this straight: Catholicism is pretty cool, because it falsely teaches non-Biblical things, albeit further removed from the Semitic origins. So that is now "good". Whatever happened to truthfulness? The point of religion (at least the Middle Eastern ones like Christianity/Judaism/Islam) is to preach the truth of God.

Sinclair
01-02-2005, 12:40 AM
And would have perished in the 8th century at the hands of the moors without Catholicism.

I think this is being neglected. Religiously right or not, Catholicism played a major part in tying together Europe during the Dark and Medieval Ages enough that every now and then they'd stop butchering each other to keep the Muslims from taking Europe. Yeah, a bit of hyperbole, but I'm lazy. The presence of the Catholic church in the power structure of Europe was important, as religion was one of the things keeping the various countries from being at more or less constant war, and keeping individual countries from splitting up into a jillion different warlord-states.

Protestantism did not show up for quite some time afterwards. The only alternative was the Eastern Orthodox church, and it was just that: Eastern.

Catholicism has been, over time, affected by the power it held over the various European nations. The only reasons the other Christian churches haven't adopted the same trappings Catholicism did is that they either haven't existed for as long, haven't been the common religion in as many places, or both.

This sudden fad for Catholic-bashing, what's it about? Basing the argument on religious sources is utter bollocks, as the Old and New Testaments were written over the ages, by different people, who were laying down the rules of the society they lived in/the rules they wished the society had/whatever the voices in their head told them to write/some combination.

Sinclair
01-02-2005, 12:46 AM
I mean, for crying out loud, historically Jesus Christ was a Jewish dissenter who led a movement to reform Judaism. If you want to worship him under another religion two thousand years later, be my guest, but going after each other for not doing it *right* is foolishness.

Ystergarde
01-02-2005, 12:52 AM
This sudden fad for Catholic-bashing, what's it about?

Getting back at the Irish. :222

AntiYuppie
01-02-2005, 01:00 AM
So, let me get this straight: Catholicism is pretty cool, because it falsely teaches non-Biblical things, albeit further removed from the Semitic origins. So that is now "good". Whatever happened to truthfulness? The point of religion (at least the Middle Eastern ones like Christianity/Judaism/Islam) is to preach the truth of God.

At the very least it is the lesser evil.

I do not believe that any religions, especially not the 4 thousand year old myths of Semitic tribes, are "the truth of God." Religion ultimately serves a social function: it's a series of myths used to convey the ethical codes and values of a society. It makes no sense for modern Europeans to use a mythology that developed in the social context of ancient Semitic societies. Insofar as Catholicism and Christianity are European phenomena, they are native and benificent, insofar as they introduce alien mythologies and worldviews onto European soil, they are to be combatted.

It never ceases to amaze me how the most nativist and provincial white nationalists (you're a Nordicist and a Scandinavian nationalist, right?) are also some of the most vocal defenders of alien myths and doctrines. So let me get this straight: Med and Slav influence (genetic or cultural) in Northwest Europe is intolerable, while Nords basing their ethos on Jewish myths is perfectly acceptable?

Ystergarde
01-02-2005, 01:09 AM
At the very least it is the lesser evil.

I do not believe that any religions, especially not the 4 thousand year old myths of Semitic tribes, are "the truth of God." Religion ultimately serves a social function: it's a series of myths used to convey the ethical codes and values of a society. It makes no sense for modern Europeans to use a mythology that developed in the social context of ancient Semitic societies.

I am an atheist.

Insofar as Catholicism and Christianity are European phenomena, they are native and benificent, insofar as they introduce alien mythologies and worldviews onto European soil, they are to be combatted.

I beg your pardon. How can we adhere to a religion, and take it as truth, if it is a mere cultural creation? Well, I suppose we could, but then we shouldn't tell people to take it too seriously. A bit like a Santa Claus thing... otherwise it is deception of the ignorant masses. No civilized, modern intellectual actually believes that the Biblical tales are true. Deception is not my habit

It never ceases to amaze me how the most nativist and provincial white nationalists (you're a Nordicist and a Scandinavian nationalist, right?) are also some of the most vocal defenders of alien myths and doctrines.

What myths? I oppose the Bible, the Koran and other fairy tales dreamed up by senile old perverts.

AntiYuppie
01-02-2005, 01:16 AM
Sorry, I was under the mistaken impression that you were defending Protestantism's Biblical orientation against Catholicism's position. Upon reading your comments elsewhere on the thread, your position (i.e. attacking both Catholicism and Protestantism) makes more sense.

In spite of my own non-belief, I do believe that religions serve a useful social function. Just as belief in Santa Claus (who brings you presents if you're good and won't if you're naughty) makes small children behave, I also think that belief in eternal reward or damnation has its social utility. I also think that just as fairy-tales are the best way to convey moral truths to children, religious myths may be the best means of doing the same for many adults.

Ystergarde
01-02-2005, 01:25 AM
Sorry, I was under the mistaken impression that you were defending Protestantism's Biblical orientation against Catholicism's position. Upon reading your comments elsewhere on the thread, your position (i.e. attacking both Catholicism and Protestantism) makes more sense.

Well admittedly I may have appeared to be a firm Protestant believer, because of my moniker. So sorry for the confusion.

I indeed have a whole lot of bitterness towards Christianity in general, and some things need to be said.

In spite of my own non-belief, I do believe that religions serve a useful social function. Just as belief in Santa Claus (who brings you presents if you're good and won't if you're naughty) makes small children behave, I also think that belief in eternal reward or damnation has its social utility. I also think that just as fairy-tales are the best way to convey moral truths to children, religious myths may be the best means of doing the same for many adults.

Sure - for some people religious belief may be valuable - especially for those who are not very intellectually oriented. We can't all be philosophers or scientific realists. But religion should be optional in society, and no form of religious censorship should be tolerated.

Petr
01-02-2005, 01:59 AM
- "Protestantism, if anything, is an attempt to re-introduce the very alien, Semitic elements that classical Christianity worked for centuries to purge from its belief systems and rituals."


Tell us just once what are these "Semitic elements" that are supposedly so very alien to Europeans, impossible to assimilate. Alphabets and chemistry have "Semitic" origin, after all.


Petr

Petr
01-02-2005, 02:02 AM
- "But religion should be optional in society, and no form of religious censorship should be tolerated."


Says a hypocrite who declares here

http://www.thephora.org/forum/showthread.php?t=6527&page=4&pp=10

that

"I would rather that all Christian pastors in Scandinavia be imprisoned."


Petr

AntiYuppie
01-02-2005, 06:17 PM
- "Protestantism, if anything, is an attempt to re-introduce the very alien, Semitic elements that classical Christianity worked for centuries to purge from its belief systems and rituals."


Tell us just once what are these "Semitic elements" that are supposedly so very alien to Europeans, impossible to assimilate. Alphabets and chemistry have "Semitic" origin, after all.


Petr

Petr, enthusiastic student of the Bible that you are, you surely realize that the moral codes of the Old Testament (including the Ten Commandments) are NOT the universalist moral codes that Christians have taken them to be. "Thou shall not murder" and "Thou shalt not steal" are moral commandments for how Jews are to treat other Jews. Did the tribal deity of the Israelites give the Ten Commandments to the world? No, according to the OT, he gave it to the Israelites, and its teachings applied only to the Israelites in the same way that kosher dietary requirements applied to the Israelites. They do not apply to Gentiles.

The Jewish attitudes that you condemn as Talmudic have their origins in Torah Judaism: a moral code of altruism and decency within the tribe combined with unscrupulousness towards the outgroup. The Talmud simply distills and makes explicit the double standards that are very much part and parcel of the OT.

To adapt this code of teachings to non-Jews, and indeed to extrapolate them as universalist moral prerogatives (something the Israelites had no notion of, as their Holy books sanction the wholesale slaughter of non-Jews and heretics) is a complete inversion of what the Torah actually meant. It is not just an attempt to repackage the teachings of one group and apply it to another (as Christian Identity types do, in their own clumsy way), but rather an attempt to push a square peg into a round hole by turning the most provincial and tribal religion into the most universalistic creed the world has ever seen.

Sure, in some convoluted way Judaic teachings have been "adapted" to the West, just as with great effort and distortion Shintoism or Confucianism could have been adapted. But why would one attempt to use the Toyota owner's manual to run and fix your Chevrolet?

Sarah
01-02-2005, 07:53 PM
I always prefered my religion to be a private matter, and my relationship with deities, spirits personal rather than a group affair. I think its better to just make up one's own religion based on what you agree with and ignore the ideas which don't sit right with you. That is what all religions are comprised of anyway, different takes on prior elements and assimilated outside influences.

Shane
01-02-2005, 10:32 PM
Getting back at the Irish. :222

For what exactly?

If anything, we should be getting back at you...but we'll be the bigger people.

Sarah
01-05-2005, 02:50 PM
The Ten Commandments and the Catholic Church (http://www.geocities.com/resilient_little_sprout/ten.htm)

Your comments, please?

Patrick
01-05-2005, 03:26 PM
Getting back at the Irish. :222

Yes, we must overthrow the Hibernian Occupational Government (HOG) that has taken control of the United States. And for gosh sakes, don't drink McDonald's Shamrock Shakes around St. Patrick's Day.

Patrick
01-05-2005, 03:33 PM
1870
Papal Infallibility declared.

(1 John 1:8 KJV) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us


Without commenting on the rest of these, this is downright misleading. The doctrine of Papal Infallibility is actually quite limited, and is only to be invoked in certain circumstances.

I'll try to take a crack at the rest of these later, and with any luck Perun will as well.

Patrick
01-05-2005, 03:45 PM
1545
The Council of Trent declares that Roman Catholic tradition is equal to the authority of Scripture. Justification by faith alone is condemned.

(Mark 7:7-9 KJV) Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. {8} For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. {9} And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.


I mean, really. I'm not saying the Catholic Church necessarily has it right, but the author of this silliness is at least as slanted as what he is criticsizing. Unless he wishes to remove James from the Canon? :rolleyes:

(In case anyone cares, I was raised Catholic and am currently an agnostic.)


http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/james/james2.htm

12
So speak and so act as people who will be judged by the law of freedom. 5
13
For the judgment is merciless to one who has not shown mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.
14
6 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15
If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16
and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17
So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18
Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19
You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23
Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."
24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25
And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
26
For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Sinclair
01-05-2005, 04:08 PM
My position: Who the hell cares? It's all stuff that was made up over quite some period of time. God may exist for all I know, but I don't see how arguing over who implements the teachings of people who heard voices in their head right helps the matter any.

Petr
01-05-2005, 08:36 PM
- “Petr, enthusiastic student of the Bible that you are, you surely realize that the moral codes of the Old Testament (including the Ten Commandments) are NOT the universalist moral codes that Christians have taken them to be. "Thou shall not murder" and "Thou shalt not steal" are moral commandments for how Jews are to treat other Jews.”


I most certainly deny that Torah permits Israelites to do whatever they please with pagan nations, like the Talmud does.

Sure, it was allowed to take interest from them and in other relatively small ways Israelites were privileged - but then again, all ancient peoples favored their own against strangers likewise.

But, precisely because some regulations put “the strangers,” “nokhrim,” to a weaker legal position, it was forbidden for Israelites to take criminal advantage over this situation:


Leviticus 19:33 And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him. 19:34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

Deuteronomy 10:17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward: 10:18 He doth execute the judgment of the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment. 10:19 Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.


Later prophetic books are full of denunciations of those who “oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.” (Malachi 3:5)

Prophet Ezekiel, on the subject of restoration of Israel to its land, gives a quite un-Zionist commandment:

“47:21 So shall ye divide this land unto you according to the tribes of Israel.
47:22 And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel.
47:23 And it shall come to pass, that in what tribe the stranger sojourneth, there shall ye give him his inheritance, saith the Lord GOD.”


And yes, pagans might actually convert to the faith of Israel and therefore gain full rights of that commonwealth to themselves – witness how outraged God was at king David for his dirty deed against Uriah the Hittite, a pagan convert.


Moreover, CHRISTIANITY is also not so universalistic doctrine as many moderns imagine! The believers in Lord Jesus are the “new Israel,” and they have certain privileges versus pagans.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.


For example, Apostle Paul forbids believers to bring their internal disputes to be judged by a heathen judge:

1 Corinthians 6:1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?”



- “ Did the tribal deity of the Israelites give the Ten Commandments to the world? No, according to the OT, he gave it to the Israelites, and its teachings applied only to the Israelites in the same way that kosher dietary requirements applied to the Israelites. They do not apply to Gentiles.“


You may know that in the times of Jesus Christ, Judaism was actually an active missionary religion, and made LOTS of converts (pagan authors were contantly complaining about that), until Talmudists took over and ended missionary activities.

Old Testament is by no means hostile towards missionary ideas. When Jesus Christ drove moneychangers out of the Temple of Jerusalem, He quoted directly from this prophecy by Isaiah:

“56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

56:7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.”



- “The Jewish attitudes that you condemn as Talmudic have their origins in Torah Judaism: a moral code of altruism and decency within the tribe combined with unscrupulousness towards the outgroup. The Talmud simply distills and makes explicit the double standards that are very much part and parcel of the OT.

To adapt this code of teachings to non-Jews, and indeed to extrapolate them as universalist moral prerogatives (something the Israelites had no notion of, as their Holy books sanction the wholesale slaughter of non-Jews and heretics) is a complete inversion of what the Torah actually meant. It is not just an attempt to repackage the teachings of one group and apply it to another (as Christian Identity types do, in their own clumsy way), but rather an attempt to push a square peg into a round hole by turning the most provincial and tribal religion into the most universalistic creed the world has ever seen.”


Many pagan anti-Semites seem to swallow this Talmudic party-line effortlessly; that is, that Talmud represents the AUTHENTIC interpretation of Torah and it is the Christian interpretation that is contrived.

In this manner, these pagans are unwittingly giving Talmudists a great prestige that they do not deserve – namely, that they are the true followers of Moses, and Christians are not.


Not only Christians are claiming that Talmud brazenly misrepresents the Old Testament. Israel Shahak, a non-religious Jew, can confirm our thesis, here:

http://www.abbc.net/islam/english/books/jewhis/jewhis3.htm


“(3) Here is a notorious case of turning the literal meaning into its exact opposite. The biblical text plainly warns against following the bandwagon in an unjust cause: “Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil; neither shalt thou speak in a cause to decline after many to wrest judgment” (Exodus, 23:2). The last words of this sentence - 'Decline after many to wrest judgment' - are torn out of their context and interpreted as an injunction to follow the majority.”



“(6 ) Finally, consider one of the most beautiful prophetic passages, Isaiah's magnificent condemnation of hypocrisy and empty ritual, and exhortation to common decency. One verse (Isaiah, 1:15) in this passage is: 'And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you; yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.' Since Jewish priests 'spread their hands' when blessing the people during service, this verse is supposed to mean that a priest who commits accidental homicide is disqualified from 'spreading his hands' in blessing (even if repentant) because they are 'full of blood'.”


This whole chapter, “Orthodoxy and Interpretation,” is worth reading. Though written from a humanistic perspective, it confirms many of our claims:


“ It is quite clear even from these examples that when Orthodox Jews today (or all Jews before about 1780) read the Bible, they are reading a very different book, with a totally different meaning, from the Bible as read by non-Jews or non-Orthodox Jews. This distinction applies even in Israel, although both parties read the text in Hebrew. Experience, particularly since 1967, has repeatedly corroborated this. Many Jews in Israel (and elsewhere), who are not Orthodox and have little detailed knowledge of the Jewish religion, have tried to shame Orthodox Israelis (or right-wingers who are strongly influenced by religion) out of their inhuman attitude towards the Palestinians, by quoting at them verses from the Bible in their plain humane sense. It was always found, however, that such arguments do not have the slightest effect on those who follow classical Judaism; they simply do not understand what is being said to them, because to them the biblical text means something quite different than to everyone else.

“ If such a communication gap exists in Israel, where people read Hebrew and can readily obtain correct information if they wish, one can imagine how deep is the misconception abroad, say among people educated in the Christian tradition. In fact, the more such a person reads the Bible, the less he or she knows about Orthodox Judaism. For the latter regards the Old Testament as a text of immutable sacred formulas, whose recitation is an act of great merit, but whose meaning is wholly determined elsewhere.”


It is by no means a desperate dodge for Christians to claim that Talmudists has falsified the true intentions of Torah, and like Jesus Christ said, are disinherited, and that Christianity is the true religion of the Old Testament.


(And just for the record, I think that the Hinduist “Law of Manu” can easily compete in racist bigotry with Talmud)


Petr

AntiYuppie
01-05-2005, 09:56 PM
Petr,

The real litmus test for whether Christian or Talmudic attitudes are the logical consequence of the Old Testament lies in how Karaites think of and treat non-Jews. The Karaites accept the Old Testament while rejecting the Talmud and Kaballah. Naturally, they are considered heretics (or even non-Jews) by the Talmudic Orthodox (who, curiously, never condemn secular Reform Jews in the way they condemn Karaites), but I know next to nothing about the Karaite attitude towards Zionism or towards gentiles. If they are more charitable than their Orthodox counterparts, that would certainly strengthen your (and Shahak's) thesis.

Petr
01-05-2005, 10:10 PM
- "The real litmus test for whether Christian or Talmudic attitudes are the logical consequence of the Old Testament lies in how Karaites think of and treat non-Jews."


Why? Like pagans like to remind us, the founders of Christianity were what are nowadays commonly referred to as "Jews". They could interpret Torah at least as ably as relatively late Karaites (originated in the 8th century AD), who, at least according to Jewish Encyclopedia, had the bias of their own:


"Principles of Karaism.

In formulating the principles of primitive Karaism concerning the doctrine of the Law the leaders of the sect generally followed Mohammedan patterns. Anan, as has been seen, was influenced by Abu Ḥanifah, and added to the three sources of Islamic law—the Koran, the "sunnah" (tradition), and "ijma'" (the agreement of all Islam)—a fourth source, namely, "ra'y," i.e., speculation, or the speculative opinions of the teachers of the Law and of the judges, which are deduced by analogy ("ḳiyas"; Talmud, "heḳḳesh") from the laws originating in the other three sources. Anan, opposed on principle to Rabbinism, could not recognize tradition as a source of law, nor could he, the founder of a new sect, consider agreement as a basis for religious law; hence he found it all the more necessary to seize upon analogical speculation. But he introduced two important modifications, based on rabbinical precedent, into the principle of Abu Ḥanifah: (1) instead of logical analogy, of chief importance with Abu Ḥanifah, Anan gave preference to verbal analogy (the rabbinical "gezerah shawah"), and frequently even resorted to literal analogy; (2) for the religious laws which he based on his speculations he endeavored to deduce support from the Biblical text: he did not hesitate at the most forced interpretations, but followed rabbis who made deductions("asmakta") in support of ancient traditions. Hence this heresiarch believed himself justified in asserting that he took all his teachings directly from the Bible. Later, however, when Ananism with its opposition to traditional Judaism and its artificial system was gradually disappearing, and Karaism was so well established that it need hesitate no longer to call things by their right names, the Karaite leaders adopted openly the Mohammedan principles concerning canons of the Law."

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=108&letter=K&search=karaites


No, like Michael A. Hoffman II puts it in here:

"Christianity is the only true religion of the Bible. It was founded by Israelites who adhered to the Torah (Pentateuch) and who recognized in Christ's gospel of salvation through grace, the fulfillment of the Old Testament. It is the followers of Jesus who constitute the holy nation and the royal priesthood (I Peter 2:9)."

http://www.revisionisthistory.org/talmudtruth.html

Nobody interprets OT better than Christians do.


Petr

Petr
01-07-2005, 11:21 PM
Here traditional Roman Catholic writer E. Michael Jones argues that Talmudic hermeneutic method could almost be considered to be a forerunner of modern de-constructionist literary criticism:


http://www.culturewars.com/2003/Skin.html

...

DISCOURSE

In terms of contemporary discourse, this means that there is no objective thing that can be defined as anti-Semitism. Hence, there is no possible way to avoid the accusation. Anti-Semitism is, like one version of beauty, something that is in the eye of the beholder, if the beholder happens to be not just a Jew -- Dresner, Makow, and Davidson are all Jews -- but a powerful Jew. Someone like Jerry Bruckheimer, for example, can talk about Jews and pornography in a way that Rabbi Dresner -- and most certainly Mike Jones -- cannot.

This view comes very close to the Talmudic understanding of textual analysis propounded by Stanley Fish. According to Fish there is no text. There are only interpretations. Fish introduced this hermeneutic during the '70s, when he was involved in leading an insurrection against the New Criticism, a critical theory that confined itself to rigorous readings of the text to the exclusion of "Catholic" references to tradition (i.e., history and biography) and was essentially Protestant in its orientation. During the '50s, the New Criticism had assumed a position of hegemony in English departments across the country. Just as the New Criticism was an updated version of the Protestant doctrine of sola scriptura, so Fish's Reader Response criticism was an updated version of Talmudic scholarship.

According to Fish, there was no Torah; there was only Talmud. The Talmud, the interpretation, had complete hegemony over the Torah, or text. The Talmud permitted what the Torah forbade. Just as the text was supreme in the New Criticism version of sola scriptura, the Rabbi/Interpreter was supreme in Fish's reader response theory. Truth was what the rabbi said it was. Fish was resurrecting what Paul Johnson called, in his history of the Jews, the cathedocracy.

Kevin MacDonald said something similar in his book The Culture of Critique:

" fundamental aspect of Jewish intellectual history has been the realization that there is really no demonstrable difference between truth and consensus. Within traditional Jewish religious discourse "truth" was the prerogative of a privileged interpretive elite that in traditional societies consisted of the scholarly class within the Jewish community. Within this community, "truth" and "reality" were nothing more (and were undoubtedly perceived as nothing more) than consensus within a sufficiently large portion of the interpretive community."

...


- and this is precisely why the rabbis had to turn the Mosaic commandment not to follow majority to an unjust cause (Exodus 23:2) completely upside down.

Michael Hoffman agrees:

"Shmuel Safrai in The Literature of the Sages Part One (p.164), points out that in chapters 4 and 5 of the Talmud's Gittin Tractate, the Talmud nullifies the Biblical teaching concerning money-lending: "Hillel decreed the prozbul for the betterment of the world. The prozbul is a legal fiction which allows debts to be collected after the Sabbatical year and it was Hillel's intention thereby to overcome the fear that money-lenders had of losing their money."

The famous warning of Jesus Christ about the tradition of men that voids Scripture (Mark 7:1-13), is in fact, a direct reference to the Talmud, or more specifically, the forerunner of the first part of it, the Mishnah, which existed in oral form during Christ's lifetime, before being committed to writing. Mark chapter 7, from verse one through thirteen, represents Our Lord's pointed condemnation of the Mishnah."

http://www.revisionisthistory.org/talmudtruth.html


Petr

Perun
01-09-2005, 07:52 PM
I'll try to take a crack at the rest of these later, and with any luck Perun will as well.

Sure if you want I can give my take on things. Although I warn you, I easily get bored debating against such obvious nonsense.