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ZeaL
12-06-2004, 10:18 AM
The German Mouse
Super-Super-Super-Heavy Tank Became Hitler's White Elephant

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One of the subjects of liveliest controversy during the Allied invasion of France was the heavy tank—the 50-ton Pershing, the 62-ton Tiger, the 75-ton Royal Tiger. Were these worth their weight? Did they gain—in protection and fire power—as much as they sacrificed in mobility? Adolph Hitler's mind was presumably made up on this point. A pet project of his, which few were aware of, appears to have been a superheavy tank that would have dwarfed even the Royal Tiger. Dubbed the Mouse, this behemoth of doubtful military value was to weigh 207 tons, combat loaded. Two were actually built, although they were never equipped with their armament.

The Mouse is an amazing vehicle, with spectacular characteristics. The glacis plate up front is approximately 8 inches (200 mm) thick. Since it is sloped at 35 degrees to the vertical, the armor basis is therefore 14 inches. Side armor is 7 inches (180 mm) thick, with the rear protected by plates 6 1/4 inches (160 mm) thick. The front of the turret is protected by 9 1/2 inches (240 mm) of cast armor, while the 8-inch (200 mm) thick turret sides and rear were sloped so as to give the effect of 9 inches (230 mm) of armor.

ARMAMENT

For the main armament, a pea-shooter like an 88-mm gun was ignored. Selected instead was the powerful 128-mm tank and antitank gun, which was later to be replaced by a 150-mm piece 38 calibers in length. (The standard German medium field howitzer 15 cm s.F.H. 18 is only 29.5 calibers in length.) Instead of mounting a 7.9-mm machine gun coaxially, the Mouse was to have a 75-mm antitank gun 76 calibers in length next to the 128- or 150-mm gun. A machine cannon for antiaircraft was to be mounted in the turret roof, along with a smoke grenade projector.

In size, the Mouse was considerably larger than any German tank. Its length of 33 feet made it nearly 50 percent longer than the Royal Tiger. Because of rail transport considerations. its width was kept to 12 feet (that of the Royal Tiger and Tiger). A 12-foot height made it a considerable target.


This German drawing shows a sectionalized elevation of the Mouse hull. The following salient features may be diingtinguished: driver's seat (20) and periscope (14 and 18); radio operator's seat (12) and radio (21); radio antenna (28); air intakes for main engine (30); main engine (3); generator (4); the right motor of the two electric motors driving the sprockets (9); auxiliary fuel tank (29). The coaxial 75-mm gun is on the right of the turret; its position relative to the 128-mm gun is shown in dotted outline.



A sectionalized plan view of the Mouse hull gives another view of many of the features shown in the first illustration. The driver's and radio operator's seats (left) are flanked by the main fuel tanks. Just to their rear is the main engine, flanked by air pumps and radiators. Further to the rear is the generator, with ammunition stowage in the sponsons on either side. In the sponson on the front right of the generator is the auxiliary engine, with storage batteries to its rear. To the rear of the hull, also in the sponsons, are the motors furnishing the electric drive. The actual transmission is in the deep part of hull between the motors, behind generator.


In order to reduce the ground pressure so that the tank could have some mobility, the tracks had to be made very wide—all of 43.3 inches. With the tracks taking up over 7 of its 12 feet of width, the Mouse presents a very strange appearance indeed from either a front or rear view. With such a track width, and a ground contact of 19 feet 3 inches, the Mouse keeps its ground pressure down to about 20 pounds per square inch—about twice that of the original Tiger.

POWER PLANTS

Designing an engine sufficiently powerful to provide motive power for the mammoth fighting vehicle was a serious problem. Though the Germans tried two engines, both around 1,200 horsepower (as compared to the Royal Tiger's 590), neither could be expected to provide a speed of more than 10 to 12 miles an hour. The Mouse can, however, cross a 14-foot trench and climb a 2-foot 4-inch step.

Whatever the military possibilities of the Mouse might be, it certainly gave designers space in which to run hog wild on various features which they had always been anxious to install in tanks. One of these gadgets was an auxiliary power plant. This plant permitted pressurizing of the crew compartment, which in turn meant better submersion qualities when fording, and good antigas protection. Auxiliary power also permitted heating and battery recharging.

One of the fancy installations was equipment designed for fording in water 45 feet deep—a characteristic made necessary by weight limits of bridges. Besides sealing of hatches and vents, aided by pressurizing, submersion was to be made possible by the installation of a giant cylindrical chimney or trunk, so large that it could serve as a crew escape passage if need be. The tanks were intended to ford in pairs, one powering the electric transmission of the other by cable.


The Mouse was as vulnerable to close-in attack as any other tank, if not more so. The large hull openings were a particular disadvantage. Note their extent: the grills of the engine access hatch, the grilled air vents which flank it, and the grills under the rear of the turret, which cool the electric motors. The auxiliary fuel tank on the rear was a considerable fire hazard.



The size and weight of the Mouse made necessary extremely wide tracks in relation to hull width. This view also shows half of the engine air-cooling system (left), and rear of right fuel tank, with an oil tank just to its left.


The electric transmission was in itself an engineering experiment of some magnitude. This type of transmission had first been used on the big Elephant assault gun-tank destroyer in 1943, and was considered by some eminent German designers as the best type of transmission—if perfected—for heavy tanks.

Another interesting feature of the Mouse from the engineerig point of view was the return from torsion bar suspension—such as was used in the Pz. Kpfw. III, the Panther, the Tiger, and the Royal Tiger—to a spring suspension. An improved torsion bar design had been considered for the Mouse, but was abandoned in favor of a volute spring type suspension.

WHY THE MOUSE?

Just why the Germans wanted to try out such a monstrosity as the Mouse is a question to be answered by political and propaganda experts. Whereas such a heavy tank might conceivably have had some limited military usefulness in breakthrough operations, it was no project for Nazi Germany experimentation in 1943, 1944, and 1945. For not only did German authorities waste time of engineers and production facilities on the two test models, but they even went so far as to construct a special flat car for rail transport.

The drawbacks inherent in such a heavy tank are patent. Weigh not only denies practically every bridge in existence to the Mouse, but it impedes rail movement unless railways are properly reinforced at bridges, culverts, and other weak points. Fording to 45-foot depths would have solved many of the stream-crossing problems in Europe, but it seems that the Mouse could actually cross in water no deeper than 26 feet. Though sitting in a rolling fortress, the six men of the Mouse crew are practically as blind as in any tank. Because of low speed and high silhouette their vehicle would be most vulnerable to hits. Since it is reasonable to suppose that heavily fortified, static positions suitable for attack by a Mouse would also be fitted with very heavy, high-velocity guns capable of antitank fire, the even occasional combat value of the Mouse comes into question. The German 128-mm Pak 44 (also known in modified forms as the 12.8 cm Pak 80) is reputed to be able to penetrate 7 inches of armor at 2,000 yards. Since the Germans actually had their Pak 44 in service in 1945, when the Mouse was not yet in the production stage, it would appear that the Germans had the antidote before the giant tanks were ready. Moreover, in the later days of the war, a rolling colossus like a Mouse would have been almost impossible to conceal, and would have fallen an easy prey to air power.


The Mouse was designed to ford up to 45 feet of water. To do so, the tank was made watertight. A trunk was fitted over the hull escape hatch, and trunk extensions bolted over the engine vents. The trunk contalned an escape ladder, and was divided into three sections, the number used varying with water depth. A second Mouse supplied electricity to the fording Mouse motors through a cable attached to the rear, as shown.


The psychological factor thus appears to have played a large part in the demand for construction of the Mouse. The German Army would never have desired such a tank, especially in 1942 when its design was apparently initiated. On the other hand, it would have made lurid headlines and Sunday supplement copy in both Allied and German press circles. But whatever the public reaction might have been, it seems questionable that the Mouse could have exerted any psychological effect on Russian, British, or American front-line troops unless the Germans possessed almost overwhelming strength, as they did when they crushed the Maginot Line in 1940. In 1944-45 it would have been too easy a mark for Allied gun and planes the first instant it appeared.


German engineers, concerned over the effect of turns upon track performance, made this electric-powered, remote controlled, large-scale wooden replica.



A head-on view of the Mouse model affords an idea of the formidable appearance of the original Mice. Note the exceptional width of the tracks.


MICE OF THE FUTURE

The appearance of such a vehicle in the opening phases of a future war is not to be entirely discounted. When Red Army armored units counterattacked German forces advancing northward toward Leningrad in 1941, the Soviets effected a substantial surprise and just missed obtaining a considerable victory by throwing in for the first time heavy 46-ton KV tanks backed by 57-ton modified KV's mounting 152-mm tank guns in their turrets,

The first days of a war are a time of uncertainty. This is a period when peacetime armies are proving themselves, when their personnel are still anxious to determine the validity of their matériel and tactical doctrines, when they are anxious to discover what the enemy is like. Rumors grow fast, and untried men are likely to be impressed with the mere report of the size and gun power of a superheavy tank. Officers and noncoms should therefore be aware of the possibility of encountering such colossal tanks. They should see that their men know the deficiencies and real purpose of outlandish vehicles of the class of the German Mouse, and that they do not attribute to these vehicles capabilities out of all proportion to their actual battle value.

Sulla the Dictator
12-06-2004, 11:16 AM
Big doesn't equal good. The King Tiger was a waste of metal. The Maus was an example of CRIMINAL waste.

cerberus
12-06-2004, 01:34 PM
An Absolute waste, says more about Hitler than it does about the reality of Germany's needs on the battlefield.
At one time he had proposed to produce only the Tiger 1 at the expense of all other German tanks , a quick way to lose the war.
Tiger 2 might have been impressive to those who saw them but for germany it was the wrong tank , under powered , over weight , fuel hungry and a challange to both rail transportation deployment.
Metal which would have been better converted into Panthers.
A waste , reflect on the many and varied projects underway in armour alone , you might be forgiven for thinking germany had time on her side.

Sinclair
12-06-2004, 04:13 PM
The Germans wasted so much building so many designs of things. Quite possibly due to the way that decisions were made by competing factions in the German government at the time (a result of Hitler's leadership technique, which involved letting the underlings squabble so none could contest his power) meant that the Germans had several different designs, most of which got built, for most "types" of things (halftracks, AT guns, light tanks, medium tanks, heavy tanks, different kinds of aircraft, etc). This wasted time, manpower, and resources (especially precious tungsten, needed for machine tool parts).

This meant that when a good design, such as the Tiger or Panther, was developed, time restrictions meant that new models had to be rushed into the field, forgoing things like post-production testing, causing mechanical failures.

Anything the Germans made that was heavier than the Tiger was more or less a waste, and the Tiger was already pushing it, as it was too heavy and the 88mm gun was overkill.

The Germans had designs that were often better than the Allies, but they built so many failed designs when their industrial power was already severely declining, in the hopes that maybe one would turn the tide, instead of sticking with one that worked.

CONSTANTINVS MAXIMVS
12-06-2004, 04:15 PM
That's a big ass tank. Anyone got a picture of it?

Patrick
12-06-2004, 04:54 PM
The pictures with people in them here show how goofy this tank was. To say this thing had a high profile is like saying Pamela Anderson has big boobs. A true statement, but one that doesn't quite convey the whole situation.

http://www.military.cz/panzer/tanks/germany/maus/index_en.htm

Sulla, was this the tank one of the generals in Liddell Hart's The German Generals Speak referred to with contempt as a "moving van." I think it may have been, but since this is a book I don't own I can't look it up.

Edit: Link not correct.

CONSTANTINVS MAXIMVS
12-06-2004, 05:48 PM
ugly fucker

Nuclear Thoughts
12-06-2004, 06:17 PM
The Leopard II, a modern day German tank.


http://www.ciar.org/ttk/mbt/mbt/mbt.leopard2a6-big.jpg

ZeaL
12-06-2004, 10:58 PM
The 88mm gun wasn't overkill. Also, some of the big tanks would have worked well under one condition, the Germans would have had to have had air superiority. Some Tiger tanks took over 200 hits from Anti-Tank guns and other tanks in a single battle and still drove out in working order. That right there shows that the Tiger tank could replace dozens of tanks with one.

88mmFlaK
12-06-2004, 11:10 PM
The 88mm gun wasn't overkill. Also, some of the big tanks would have worked well under one condition, the Germans would have had to have had air superiority. Some Tiger tanks took over 200 hits from Anti-Tank guns and other tanks in a single battle and still drove out in working order. That right there shows that the Tiger tank could replace dozens of tanks with one.

King Tigers were so effective that they were generally deployed in groups of three, to delay the advance of much larger allied units. Given air superiority, they could also be used as 'breakthough' units, or put at the point of a Panzerkiel, (wedge formation of tanks) in order to draw fire from enemy positions thereby revealing those positions for targeting.

cerberus
12-07-2004, 02:09 AM
The Tiger was overly engineered, too complex and prone to breakdowns.
The Tiger 2 had the same problems.
The 88 mm gun I would not say was an over kill but the panther was a better tank , in common with the Tiger , too complex in its desig

http://www.tiger-tank.com/

Above might be of interest the restoration of the first Tiger captured by the Allies in North Africa being returned to running order at Bovington.
Jpegs below shows her on her first run out in May of this year.

Patrick
12-07-2004, 04:20 AM
King Tigers were so effective that they were generally deployed in groups of three, to delay the advance of much larger allied units.

http://users.swing.be/tanks.tanks/complet/476.html#542

According to the link above, only 489 King Tigers were produced. Hardly enough to do much of anything, when you're comparing it to Shermans and T-34s produced by the tens of thousands. Smacks of extreme inefficiency in methods of production from where I'm sitting. Certainly must have been expensive as hell to produce on a per unit basis.


Given air superiority, they could also be used as 'breakthough' units, or put at the point of a Panzerkiel, (wedge formation of tanks) in order to draw fire from enemy positions thereby revealing those positions for targeting.

Since the King Tigers didn't enter production until late 1943 or early 1944, (the link above says 1944, though I thought I read late 1943 somewhere) I'm not sure where the 'given air superiorty' you're postulating ever actually occurred while the King Tigers were in service. Certainly nowhere in the West.

Patrick
12-07-2004, 04:26 AM
Since we're talking ridiculous tanks, I figured I'd post this link to the American version of the Maus nonsense. Though it is "only" 95 tons, it is one of the odder looking tanks I think I've ever seen. Top speed of 8 MPH and double treads on both sides. Not sure what they were thinking when they came up with this garbage.

http://users.swing.be/tanks.tanks/complet/542.html#208539

88mmFlaK
12-07-2004, 06:08 AM
http://users.swing.be/tanks.tanks/complet/476.html#542

According to the link above, only 489 King Tigers were produced. Hardly enough to do much of anything, when you're comparing it to Shermans and T-34s produced by the tens of thousands. Smacks of extreme inefficiency in methods of production from where I'm sitting. Certainly must have been expensive as hell to produce on a per unit basis.



Since the King Tigers didn't enter production until late 1943 or early 1944, (the link above says 1944, though I thought I read late 1943 somewhere) I'm not sure where the 'given air superiorty' you're postulating ever actually occurred while the King Tigers were in service. Certainly nowhere in the West.

True, around that time the Axis was losing air superiority in the east as well.

However the works for the king tiger were in well before it's actual introduction, the loss of German air superiority at that time was unforseeable.

I'd say that there would be situations where it would be preferable to deploy three king tigers, as opposed to a larger number of smaller tanks, due to space restrictions (narrow passes and such), or a lack of trained personnel, perhaps?

The heavy tank would indeed make the ideal point of a Panzerkiel due to it's resistance to damage, a tactic which was first used by the armored offensive into the heavily fortified Kursk salient, Citadel '43.

Pasdaran
12-07-2004, 06:27 AM
maus tank photo

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/images/cmaus.jpg

Info here http://www.achtungpanzer.com/pz7.htm

Nuclear Thoughts
12-07-2004, 08:38 AM
Even the German Maus tank was no match for the Nazis even more super secret weapon, the Schutzenkreig Robotzenpanzer, which made its final stand on the outskirts of Berlin, May 1945...


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v222/ihn4f/NaziWonderWeaponsBerlin1945.jpg

CONSTANTINVS MAXIMVS
12-07-2004, 11:36 AM
Even the German Maus tank was no match for the Nazis even more super secret weapon, the Schutzenkreig Robotzenpanzer, which made its final stand on the outskirts of Berlin, May 1945...


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v222/ihn4f/NaziWonderWeaponsBerlin1945.jpg
LMFAO

nice

cerberus
12-07-2004, 12:30 PM
When you look at the limted part played by the Hunting Tiger and how under powered it was , what chance would anything bigger have on the battlefield ?
Large , slow , vunerable at close quarters a nightmare to recover if battle damaged or if broken down.
Recovery of damaged tanks was something the Wehrmacht always did better than the Allies, recovery of a Tiger was never easy, for Jgd.Tiger or larger , almost impossible.

Another waste of resources toling up and creating a production line for a tank killer for which there was no real need for.

Panther and Hunting Panther ( 88mm armed) lighter , quicker and more user friendly. ( No need to change tracks between arrival and deployment).

cerberus
12-09-2004, 02:10 AM
Another super heavy project under way , the E-100.
fighting weight of 140 tons , 48 tons lighter than the maus*.
( The approx. weight of say a Panther or 2 Mk.IV's.).
This had reached protype and was complete apart from it turret.
When the war ended and was captured by the British.

Hannibal
12-09-2004, 02:23 AM
Maus was an experimental tank. That’s what you do in war. Experiment with new weapons. The V1/V2 rocket, the jet engine and the stealth bomber where were all experimental weapons made by those “stupid” Nazis and look where that want.

Sinclair
12-09-2004, 02:35 AM
But the jobs that the V1/V2, etc, did were not already being done. Whereas the Maus was blatantly wierd: After a certain point, armour is more of a detriment than a benefit. Being that slow and getting the really shitty fuel economy that goes with it was hardly what Germany needed.

The ways the German decision-making process were split really harmed Germany in the war. If they'd just figured out what worked and stuck with it, instead of trying to build, say, half a dozen different tank destroyers, they'd have done a lot better.

cerberus
12-09-2004, 02:46 AM
The word stupid is perhaps out of place.
Given the later stage of the war and the limits placed on resources was a super heavy tank a serious runner ?
As far as V-1 and V-2 went they achieved very little and perhaps promised more had they been into service earlier, but they proved even more inacurate than conventional bombing .
V-1 was easily and quickly countered.
V-2 came down anywhere within the target area which was general at best , no defense could stop it but pay load was small and it could not be aimed at a specific target.
A better use of the "rocket" , " Moaning Minnie" and the battlefield deployment of similar weapons systems.

The jet , could have been in earlier had it not been cancelled as a project in 1940 before being revived and had it been left as a pure fighter.
(The British also had a jet into service at the same time as the 262).
Shifting priorities and being over stretched certainly didn't help matters.
The Arado-234 and ME-262 proved to be excellent although the jumo power unit needed to be treated with care.
On the other hand Walter engined U-boat , Me-163 , a wide range of rocket projects which in realistic terms would remain as research projects .

Perhaps the most important reserch project to have a direct bearing on the war ?
The cavity magnatron which produced 10cm radar. (Non-German)

cerberus
12-09-2004, 03:02 AM
Sinclair makes a good point, its not hard to imagine the thoughts of serious soldiers on the likes of "Maus" or "E-100".
Remember these things were the size of three Tiger 2's (having the same power plant).
What need was there for a huge almost static cumbersome "land battleship".
How could such a tank be deployed at any distance from its transporter or how could it be recovered if damaged ?
Even as a research project it was the wrong one , one which must have had very little input from front line soldiers.
A machine that there was no use for , it was a waste.
When the 88mm or 75mm on a Panther could kill any Allied tank at range why go for an even larger gun , as well as 75mm on the same turret ?