I have been following the trial of Winston Churchill over at the Stormfront hate site. Here are the results so far:

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=160502&page=22&pp=10&highlight=nazism

Winston Churchill was a traitor to the British people: 6

Winston Churchill was a war criminal: 3

Winston Churchill was both a traitor and a war criminal: 38

Winston Churchill always acted always in Britain's best interests as he saw them: 19

Winston Churchill was a saint who could do no wrong: 0

Um, aaah, dunno: 4Looks like you struck out, Dan. Sorry to hear that. Put the question to historians or the British people next time.

Another interesting poll:

Would you join a NS org?

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=166058

Take a look at the results of the poll. 44 Yeas, 22 Maybe, and 30 Nays. Now why do you all suppose White Nationalists are called Nazis? Stuff like this indicates that it is best to stick with "British Nationalist."

Some commentary:

Brutus: There is nothing sensible about a British Nationalist party that glorifies the name of a man who was a fully paid member of a Jewish war mongering pressure group, and a man who was not only supporter of, but an advocate for non-white immigration into Britain. The fact that so many of you overlook these simple points and vote in favour of this creature as an icon of British Nationalism is quite disturbing. In fact i dont know why any of you Churchillites bother coming here, surely you are all happy with our Judeo/masonic multiculti Zionist lap dog Britannia.

With past leaders like Churchill, what else did you expect?
It was inevitable Britain would be as it is today, so why not just embrace it?
After all, you deserve it.

"Reap" and "sow" spring to mind.

Lord Playfair: Fraser, you're not really that stupid are you?

You got 27%

That is a massive defeat in anyones book and considering the option that got 27% was "Winston Churchill always acted always in Britain's best interests as he saw them" we could break it down even further.

How many of the 27% think he is a 'hero' and how many think he acted in what he considered to be Britain's best interests, but was wrong in what those interests were?

So really not only was this poll a massive defeat for Churchill, and his supporters, and considering the 'winning' side writes history, that is a terrible defeat, but it's only the kind wording of the options that saves it from being an even bigger trouncing.

Read above.

As time moves on, and the 'emotions' surrounding the Second World war, become more dulled, and the subject is looked at more through an acedemic eye, rather than through an emotional eye, and the people become more and more educated on the subject, the figures above will only move in one direction.

Already there is a massive defeat for Churchill, in the future that will be even bigger, therefore it is pure folly to suggest promoting him is a good idea, especially when we can see, from the reaction here, that it just serves to alienate good and loyal Nationalists and to cause divisions and rifts.

sidv: Churchill's not a British hero but a traitor.
MuadDib: In case you missed the home page or the logo at the top left, this is a White Nationalist forum.
fraser: And this is the British section
MuadDib: Yes, it is. It is the section for British White Nationalists.
sidv: And not a CONservative forum ,Fraser

I have been following the trial of Winston Churchill over at the Stormfront hate site. Here are the results so far:

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=160502&page=22&pp=10&highlight=nazism

Looks like you struck out, Dan. Sorry to hear that. Put the question to historians or the British people next time.

Actually I'm not too crestfallen, it was all fairly predictable given the venue.

It is interesting however that, if you restrict the vote to Britons only, the result was much closer: 19 to 16.

What pleased me most was the collegiate style used by most of the participants, the usual suspects notwithstanding. I think that augurs well.

William Joyce conducted himself quite well in the debate, which suprised me, as those who put forth that point of view usually tend to be more like sidv (aka Brighton WNP at VNN). IMO you put forth the better argument. Something tells me that fraser won't last much longer though. MuadDib already has him in his crosshairs.

True! "Winston Churchill was both a traitor and a war criminal." But they left out Fool!

I like Chamberlain. Maybe things would have been better had Nazi Germany established it's Eurasian continental empire. It is hard to imagine such an empire being worse than Stalinism, and easy to imagine it being a great deal better.

Faust: "True! "Winston Churchill was both a traitor and a war criminal." But they left out Fool!"

FadeTheButcher: How can Winston Churchill be considered a traitor and a war criminal? Churchill said that Hitler could not be appeased. Churchill was right.

Bardamu: "I like Chamberlain."

FadeTheButcher: I like Chamberlain as well, even if I regard him as misguided. Chamberlain went absolutely out of his way to bring Hitler to his senses. He was willing to work with Hitler and was even willing to buck public opinion to prevent another World War. Chamberlain was a good European. Hitler, however, was not.

Bardamu: "Maybe things would have been better had Nazi Germany established it's Eurasian continental empire."

FadeTheButcher: I don't think so. Life wasn't so bad in Europe or America before Hitler. Things were even getting better. The eugenics movement had been making progress in both Europe and America. There was no massive third world immigration. All of this only changed after WW2, in large part because racialism was associated with Nazism after the war. The real question, I think, is what would life be like for us today if Hitler had never came to power.

Bardamu: "It is hard to imagine such an empire being worse than Stalinism, and easy to imagine it being a great deal better."

FadeTheButcher: Why would a Nazi Empire have been necessary in the first place? What was so wrong with Western Europe, especially Britain, before Adolf Hitler?

Bardamu: "I like Chamberlain."

FadeTheButcher: Chamberlain was a good European. Hitler, however, was not.

I agree. Chamberlain hated war, whereas Hitler loved it.


FadeTheButcher: I don't think so. Life wasn't so bad in Europe or America before Hitler.

At the time the world was mired in the Great Depression, and the Bolsheviks had come to power in Russia, which resulted in the successful liquidation of the traditional ruling classes. There were powerful communist parties in all the Western democracies and they were as blood thirsty, well financed, and idealized as their relatives in Russia.

In many ways the war was a fight between Left and Right, and the Left won, resulting in the gates being thrown open to the hordes of turd worlders.

Bardamu: At the time the world was mired in the Great Depression, and the Bolsheviks had come to power in Russia, which resulted in the successful liquidation of the traditional ruling classes.

FadeTheButcher: That's true. But its also true that Western Europe and America would have eventually emerged from the Great Depression. The Bolsheviks were a menace, but they were contained in the Soviet Union. The attempt to export Communism into Europe had been a failure. During the Second World War, local communists in Eastern Europe were able to reinvent themselves as antifascists and gained popularity due to their resistance to the Nazis.

Bardamu: There were powerful communist parties in all the Western democracies and they were as blood thirsty, well financed, and idealized as their relatives in Russia.

FadeTheButcher: These Communists didn't come to power either. If the German conservatives had held their ground, then its doubtful Hitler or the Communists would have ever come to power in Germany. The German economy had begun to recover in the fall of 1932. In other words, the economy would have shortly stablized and support for the Nazis and Communists would have collapsed. Germany would most likely have reached a negotiated settlement with the British and its eastern lands would almost certainly have been restored. WW2 never would have occurred. Its highly unlikely that the Cold War would have occurred either. Weimar Germany would have survived and made economic inroads into Eastern Europe just as West Germany was to later do. Bolshevism would probably have collapsed much earlier. Racialism would never have become associated with Nazism and probably never would have collapsed either. The British and French Empires would probably still be around. Tens of millions of people would never have died in Africa in the last fifty years. The world would be an infinitely better place than it is today.

Bardamu: In many ways the war was a fight between Left and Right, and the Left won, resulting in the gates being thrown open to the hordes of turd worlders.

FadeTheButcher: There was no massive third world immigration before Hitler came to power in Europe and America. Its unlikely there ever would have been if WW2 did not occur and WW2 would never have occurred had anyone but Adolf Hitler been negotiating with Chamberlain. Before the war, the eugenics movement had been spreading throughout Europe, triumphing in Scandinavia in the 1930s. Segregation grew stronger in the United States during the 10's, 20's, and 30's. The National Origins Act of 1924 would have ensured that America remain a white nation forever.

While I won't knock Churchill's leadership of Britain he did a few bad things.

Gallipolli, drew the dividing lines in the Middle East( which didn't make much sense), and of course the infamous Operation Keelhaul( which seemed to me to be a senseless crime but I don't know his reasoning at the time).

Calling him a traitor for his mistakes while ignoring his good points is bs.

FadeTheButcher: How can Winston Churchill be considered a traitor and a war criminal? Churchill said that Hitler could not be appeased. Churchill was right.

I find Churchill saying this ridiculous. It would be just as easy to assert the following: Hitler said that Churchill could not be appeased. Hitler was right.

FadeTheButcher: I don't think so. Life wasn't so bad in Europe or America before Hitler. Things were even getting better.

The Weimar Republic was a god-awful, feeble-willed place.

I agree. Chamberlain hated war, whereas Hitler loved it.

I would say artist and warlord were two concepts of equal measure which were entwined in his soul.

I would say artist and warlord were two concepts of equal measure which were entwined in his soul.

Actually Churchill has a legitimate claim to have been better at both pursuits. Particularly if we include writing as an art.

Actually Churchill has a legitimate claim to have been better at both pursuits. Particularly if we include writing as an art.

In the entirity of artistic matters, I disagree. The written word should be considered an art. Churchill could write for England, and he did.

FadeTheButcher: That's true. But its also true that Western Europe and America would have eventually emerged from the Great Depression.

Wasn't it the war itself that got us out of the Great Depression?

The Bolsheviks were a menace, but they were contained in the Soviet Union. The attempt to export Communism into Europe had been a failure.

This is a matter of opinion. I don't think the people of the time considered Communism to be a failure. It was a threat in Germany and elsewhere. In fact, it was still ascending in popularity.

During the Second World War, local communists in Eastern Europe were able to reinvent themselves as antifascists and gained popularity due to their resistance to the Nazis.

They also reinvented themselves as fascists.

If the German conservatives had held their ground, then its doubtful Hitler or the Communists would have ever come to power in Germany.

This is speculatory. Conservatives don't have a record of being on the winning side of history, and they are always in an adversarial relationship toward labor. Rights have to be taken from Conservatives rather than given for the sake of the common good, something that the fascism got right. Look at our Conservatives, for an example, or the English Conservatives of the time. The situation for working people, such as coal miners in Britain, was horrifying. Conservatives were going to address these issues? Not likely.

The German economy had begun to recover in the fall of 1932. In other words, the economy would have shortly stablized and support for the Nazis and Communists would have collapsed.

It was Hitler's economic miracle that stabilized the German economy.

Germany would most likely have reached a negotiated settlement with the British and its eastern lands would almost certainly have been restored..

This is possible, but not definite.

WW2 never would have occurred.

Provided Russia didn't attack Poland and Eastern Europe, not to mention Germany.

Its highly unlikely that the Cold War would have occurred either.

Who knows about this? It could just as easily be guessed that Russia and the West were headed for an inevitable showdown.

Weimar Germany would have survived and made economic inroads into Eastern Europe just as West Germany was to later do.

Weimar Germany was a mess. Honest people couldn't walk down the street without getting mugged. Law and order was in retreat. In fact, Weimar Germany was prototype for contemporary America.

Bolshevism would probably have collapsed much earlier.

Who could possibly know?

Racialism would never have become associated with Nazism and probably never would have collapsed either.

The Left would have continued its attack upon racialism. The Left was then concerned with "classes" not races, at least in propraganda, whereas in fact the Left has always been concerned with "deconstructing whiteness".

The British and French Empires would probably still be around.

This is very doubtful. The Indians would have revolted and the French Empire in Africa was never worth the coin.

Tens of millions of people would never have died in Africa in the last fifty years.

Who cares? Really, FAde.

The world would be an infinitely better place than it is today.

This is impossible to tell.

There was no massive third world immigration before Hitler came to power in Europe and America.

Massive third world immigration has to do with our demographic decline, as well as the influence of some very powerful minorities who perfer the West to be multicultural, for their
own protection and sustained power.


[/QUOTE]

Winston Churchill was a real benevolent angel.

http://globalfire.tv/nj/graphs/chchllgun.jpg

-k0nsl

Touché!

http://www.towson.edu/heartfield/art/moves.jpg

Bardamu: Wasn't it the war itself that got us out of the Great Depression?

FadeTheButcher: No. The U.S. economy was already recovering when we entered WW2 in '41.

Bardamu: This is a matter of opinion.

FadeTheButcher: Its a fact. There had been Communist uprisings during the Weimar Republic that were put down. The Communists also briefly came to power in Hungary but were overthrown.

Bardamu: I don't think the people of the time considered Communism to be a failure. It was a threat in Germany and elsewhere. In fact, it was still ascending in popularity.

FadeTheButcher: The Communists, like the Nazis, were taking advantage of the circumstances of the Depression. Yet the Depression had already bottomed out in '32 in Germany. Hitler was beginning to lose support, which is precisely why he cut a deal with German conservatives in the first place. The Soviets had also failed to export Communism to Europe before the war.

Bardamu: Provided Russia didn't attack Poland and Eastern Europe, not to mention Germany.

FadeTheButcher: The Bolsheviks did attack Poland and the Poles had defeated them in the 1920s. It was also Germany that was industrializing the USSR in the first place.

Bardamu: This is possible, but not definite.

FadeTheButcher: Its a virtual historical certainty. British foreign policy had for years been premised upon reaching a final settlement with Germany. The British had already told Stressmann during the Weimar Republic that Germany's eastern border was not a British interest.

Bardamu: Who cares? Really, FAde.

FadeTheButcher: Most civilized people.

Bardamu: It was Hitler's economic miracle that stabilized the German economy.

FadeTheButcher: This is false. The work creation programs were begun by Hitler's predecessors and the economy had already began to recover in '32. Germany was already recovering when Hitler came to power.

Bardamu: This is very doubtful. The Indians would have revolted and the French Empire in Africa was never worth the coin.

FadeTheButcher: There had been revolts against British rule in India throughout the early 20th century that never amounted to anything. The Congress Party was a virtual creation of the British themselves anyway. The French saw the situation in North Africa quite differently.

Bardamu: Weimar Germany was a mess. Honest people couldn't walk down the street without getting mugged. Law and order was in retreat.

FadeTheButcher: This is an exaggeration. Weimar Germany had economic problems but Hitler destroyed Germany and left it ruins. His regime was also the incarnation of lawlessness.

Bardamu: In fact, Weimar Germany was prototype for contemporary America.

FadeTheButcher: I disagree. The U.S. is the wealthiest nation in the history of the world. The U.S. is not reeling from a catastrophic military defeat. The U.S. has not lost territory to its neighbors.

Bardamu: This is speculatory.

See Richard Evans's The Coming of the Third Reich.

Bardamu: The Left would have continued its attack upon racialism.

FadeTheButcher: The Left had been attacking racialism since the end of reconstruction. The Civil Rights Movement had been a miserable failure for almost a hundred years before Hitler came to its rescue. Racialism grew stronger throughout the 20s and the 30s in America.

Bardamu: The Left was then concerned with "classes" not races, at least in propraganda, whereas in fact the Left has always been concerned with "deconstructing whiteness".

FadeTheButcher: The Communist Party USA was a miserable failure and the high tide of socialism in the United States had long passed before WW2 came around. Furthermore, if you actually go back and research the issue, then you will see that it was the rise of fascism that precipitated the decline of racialism in America. Carl Degler has a good book about this. I have cited it in other debates.

Bardamu: Who could possibly know?

FadeTheButcher: Its not a far fetched theory to say the least. West Germany played an instrumental part in ending the Cold War.

Bardamu: Who knows about this? It could just as easily be guessed that Russia and the West were headed for an inevitable showdown.

FadeTheButcher: Because a strong conservative Germany with Western support would have blocked Soviet expansion into Europe. The economic expansion of Germany would have probably precipitated the fall of Bolshevism as well, just as it was later to do in the 1980s.

Bardamu: Massive third world immigration has to do with our demographic decline, as well as the influence of some very powerful minorities who perfer the West to be multicultural, for their
own protection and sustained power.


FadeTheButcher: Once again, there was no massive third world immigration before Adolf Hitler.

I like Chamberlain. Maybe things would have been better had Nazi Germany established it's Eurasian continental empire. It is hard to imagine such an empire being worse than Stalinism, and easy to imagine it being a great deal better.

Someone should ask a Pole, a Czech, a Uke, a Dane, etc.

Touché!


Nothing quite like British propaganda.

-k0nsl

Someone should ask a Pole, a Czech, a Uke, a Dane, etc.

Weren't there fascist parties in each of these nations, with the exception of Poland? Poland is not a fair example because it now lives on stolen German land.

I am not arguing the position that Hilter was admirable. I am saying, I don't think things could be a hell of a lot worse had the Axis won.

Nothing quite like British propaganda.

-k0nsl

I agree, usually.

But that's one of John Heartfield's, who was German.

The Russians were pretty good as well, do you like this one?


The East Front general seeks fresh orders and Hitler deliberates...

Yes, very nice. Thanks for sharing. I shall print it out and plaster it all around my house.

-k0nsl

Picked up Kershaw's Making Friends With Hitler: Lord Londonderry, The Nazis, and the Road to War (2004) today. Have you read it yet, Dan?

No, I haven't.

Let us know what you make of it.