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cerberus
07-08-2004, 08:58 PM
61 years ago on 5th July , "Operation Citadel" was launched.
Hitler said that every time he though of the attack his stomach turned over.
Victory was to "shine to the world like a beacon".
When the attack was called off the breakthrough had not been achieved.
The attack, posponed on several occasions ( to enable the new Panther MkV to be rushed into service) had been launched late and against the advice of Manstein , it was also called off against his advice.
The Panzer force which Guderian had put so much effort into rebuilding had been largely destroyed.
Russian defenders out numbered the German attacking forces , Russian losses were much heavier than those sustained by the Germans , who could not afford them , senior NCO's and Officers in particular.

Was the war already lost prior to this battle ?
Should it have been launched earlier as Manstein had urged ?
Why did Hitler insist on it going ahead in the full knowledge of the depth of defences ?
Had Manstein's advice been followed would German troops have faired better ?

Sinclair
07-08-2004, 11:41 PM
Weren't the Russians getting via intelligence the German plans as they were released and revised?

cerberus
07-09-2004, 12:19 AM
Sinclair,
I think it was coming to them both via the "lucy" spy ring and certainly via Ultra.
The Russians very much played down the intelligence supplied via Ultra and said it was almost useless to them.
I know as time rolled on Manstein knew that the opportunity had been lost and a different attitude and approach had to be adopted.
Is there any truth in the story that Germany and russia had talks in 1943 but could not agree on terms Russia wanted the pre-barbarossa line but Germany was unwilling to abandon that which they still held , in particular the Donnets basin.

Von Apfelstrudel
07-09-2004, 12:35 PM
The Panzer force which Guderian had put so much effort into rebuilding had been largely destroyed.
Russian defenders out numbered the German attacking forces , Russian losses were much heavier than those sustained by the Germans , who could not afford them , senior NCO's and Officers in particular.

Moreover, the Soviets, by retaining control of the battleground, were able to service and repair quite a proportion of their armour losses, while the Germans couldn't ...


Was the war already lost prior to this battle ?


Hmmm ... Does someone recall who said "After Stalingrad, the German people began to wonder if the war could ever be lost, after Kutsk wether it could ever be won" ?

cerberus
07-16-2004, 11:09 PM
I recall reading this or something very similar but can't recall the source.
Stalingrad said the war might be lost , Kursk confirmed that it was lost.
Had a breakthrough been made , the reserves to exploit and retain the gains did not exist , the reason to fight on was influenced mainly by the desire to damage the Russian ability to mount their own counter offensive.