by Robert N. Proctor. Just picked this up today. I plan on posting some excerpts out of it later. From the back cover:

"Robert Proctor recently made the explosive discovery that Nazi Germany was decades ahead of other countries in promoting health reforms that we today regard as progressive and socially responsible, including anti-smoking campaigns, restrictions on abestos, pesticides, and food dyes, and the promotion of vegetarianism. Proctor explores these findings and concludes that the Nazi's forward-looking health activities stemmed from the ideal of a racial utopia reserved exclusively for pure and healthy Germans."

There are some great propaganda posters in here from the National Socialist anti-tobacco campaign. Unfortunately, I cannot post them as I do not have a scanner.

the promotion of vegetarianism

This is nothing to brag about.

LOL yes, this book has been banned in Germany! Hahaha! Or should I say, no publisher is willing to touch it! I just read an article about it in "Der Spiegel" when it first came out and how the establishment here shrieked.

Decon: Try to ignore Proctor's moralising. My god. You mean to say that science flourishes in the absence of democracy? :p

Triumphs of the Intellect

A great deal is known about science and medicine in the Nazi era. We know that while certain kinds of science were destroyed, others flourished. Sciences of an applied nature were especially encouraged, as were sciences that fit within the larger program of Nazi segregation and extermination. We know that physicians joined the Nazi party in very large numbers, that about 60 percent of all biologists joined the party, and that roughly 80 percent of all professors of anthropology -- most of whom were physicians -- were members. We know that the Nazi regime maintained a large medical surveillance capacity, as part of its program to "improve the strength of the German nation"; we know that there is a curious blend of the modern and the romantic in Nazi culture -- a blend Jeffrey Herf has characterized as "reactionary modernism."

Part of our story has to be understood in light of the fact that Nazism took root in the world's most powerful scientific culture, boasting half of the world's Nobel Prizes and a sizable fraction of the world's patents. German science and medicine were the envy of the world, and it was to Germany -- the "land of scholars and poets" -- that many academic hopefuls flocked to cut their scientific teeth.

The Third Reich itself cannot be thought of as an icebound retreat into intellectual slumber: think of television, jet-propelled aircraft, guided missles, electronic computers, the electron microscope, atomic fission, data processing, industrial murder factories, and racial research -- all of which either were first developed in Nazi Germany or reached their high point at that time. (The recent sci-film film Contact, based on Carl Sagan's novel, reminds us that the first television broadcast strong enough to escape the planet featured Hitler's speech at the opening of the 1936 Berlin Olympics.) There were innovations in the area of basic physics (nuclear fission, discovered by Otto Hahn and Lise Meitner in 1938), hormone and vitamin research, automotive engineering (the Volkswagen was suppsoed to be the "people's car"), pharmacology, and synthetic gasoline and rubber (I.G. Farben in 1942 controlled more than 90 percent of the world's synthetic rubber production). The nerve gas sarin and the chemical warfare agent tabun are both I.G. Farben inventions of Third Reich vintage -- as is the opiate methadone, synthesized in 1941, and Demerol, created about this time with the name "pethidine."

There were many other examples. Nazi aeronatuic engineers developed the first intercontinental ballistic missles -- never actually assembled -- and it was Germans in the 1940s who built the first jet ejection seat. German engineer's built the world's first autobahns, and the world's first magnetic tape recording is of a speech by Hitler. American military leaders knew that German scientists had not slept through the Hitler era, and after the war commissioned dozens of leading scholars to write book-length summaries of their fields, a veritable Encyclopedia Naziana with entries on everything from biophysics to tropical medicine. It is interesting what fileds they chose to ignore: occupational health and antitobacco research, for example.

It is therefore surely not enough to say that the human inventine spirit was suppressed or even that it survived as "pockets of innovation" immune to Nazi influence. The story of science under German fascism must be more than a narrative of suppression and survival; we have to find out how and why Nazi ideology promoted certain areas of inquiry, how research was turned and twisted, how projects and policies came and went with the movement of political forces. If we find that certain sciences flourished, we then have to ask: What was science that it so easily adopted to fascist politics?

Little has been written on Nazi cancer research and policy, and there are interesting reasons for the neglect. Historians who have focused on Nazi medicine have tended to concentrate either on political or racial ideology, or on the complicity of physicians in Nazi campaigns of sterilization, segregation, and medicalized killing (e.g., the "euthanasia" operation). These deadly aspects of medicine under fascism are far better known than many other aspects -- addiction or vitamin research, for example -- that were also woven into Nazi ideology. Public health professionals have paid little attention, both because of the distance of history and because little might appear to be gained by pointing to Nazi success in fighting food dyes, tobacco, or occupational dust. The forgetfulness is especially strong in Germany itself, where the predictable ahistoricity of cancer researchers is compounded by their unstudied aversion toward anything that went on in the 1930s and 1940s. Nazism, for many Germans, is still a dirty word.

The topic is sobering, given that Nazi health activists may well have developed the most aggressive and successful cancer prevention program of the era. This should not be too surprising, since German cancer research -- and medical research more generally -- was the most advanced in the world by the time of the Machtergreifung (1933). German scientists were the first to discover skin cancers caused by coal tar distillates, and the first to show that uranium mining could cause lung cancer (both in the 1870s). Germans were the first to identify a bladder cancer hazard of aniline dye manafacture (in 1895), a lung cancer hazard from chromate manufacture (1911), and a skin cancer hazard of sunlight exposure (1894). German physicians were the first to diagnose an X-ray-induced cancer (in 1902) and the first to prove, by animal experimentation, that X-rays could cause leukemia (1906). They were even the first to suggest taht domestic indoor radon might prove to be a health hazard, in 1907.

There are many other examples one can name -- and in the interest of completeness (and at the risk of tedium), I shall continue. Johannes Müller in the 1830s pioneered the microscopic analysis of malignancies, identifying tumors as composed of cells, and Rudolf Virchow in Berlin in the 1860s developed the theory of cancer as caused by local "irritations." Germans were pioneers of cancer transplant research, and early in the development of the theory of dose-response latency (Latenzzeit). Germans were among the first to propose a major role for hormones in carcinogenesis and were early on aware of what is sometimes today called the "xenoestrogen hypothesis" -- the idea that powerful petrochemical carcinogens such as methylcholanthrene may work by mimicking the body's natural hormones. It was a Munich pathologist (Max Borst) who first classified tumors according to their histogenesis, the method used today by the World Health Organization to classify cancers.

The list goes on: Germans were the first to utilize tissue stains as chemotherapeutic agents (in 1922), and were the first to inject thorotrast (thorium dioxide) into patients to imporve the contrast in X-ray photographic plates (1928). German geneticists were the first to show that colon cancer could be inherited as a dominant trait, and it was a German zoologist -- Theodor H. Boveri -- who first proposed that chromosomal abnormalities might be responsible for the onset of malignancies (1902). Germans was the site of the first international congress of cancer research (Heidelberg and Frankfurt, in 1906) and the first country to establish a permanent journal devoted exclusively to cancer research. German pioneered the optical diagnosis of cancer, being home to the development of not just X-rays and the colposcope but also the rectal endoscope -- a candlelit version of which was introduced in Frankfurt in 1807. German was arguably, at least for a time, the language of international cancer research: in 1915, for example, when Katsusaburo Yamagiwa and Koichi Ichikawa announced their experimental production of coal tar cancer in laboratory animals, they published it auf Deutsch. Germans were also apparently the first to suggest that secondhand tobacco smoke might be a cause of lung cancer -- in 1928.

TBC

Fair play Fade , but other folks ( non Germans) contributed to mankind as well.
No one would dispute that German science has done much for the advancement of mankind.

think of television

Invented by an American Mormon, Farnsworth.

The Krauts are superior to the other races of Europe, but not the inbred Alpine papist constituency which formed the early support base of the nazi party.

Germans were also apparently the first to suggest that secondhand tobacco smoke might be a cause of lung cancer -- in 1928Unless you spend day in day out in a small poker room where everyone is smoking cigars this is junk science.

>>>The Krauts are superior to the other races of Europe, but not the inbred Alpine papist constituency which formed the early support base of the nazi party.

LMAO I will never get over how this Yankee from Massachusetts tries to pass himself off as a Prussian bigot. Tell me this, Weikel. Where is Munich? Which part of Germany has always been the most advanced, cultured, and prosperous?

>>>Unless you spend day in day out in a small poker room where everyone is smoking cigars this is junk science.

LOL what?

Munich is in Bavaria. Diffrent parts of Germany have been more prosperous at diffrent times.

LOL what?

The chances of you getting cancer from secondhand tobacco smoke are extremely remote, you would essentially have to play poker in some cigar smoke filled backroom full time for it to happen.

>>> Munich is in Bavaria. Diffrent parts of Germany have been more prosperous at diffrent times.

Is that so? Well, I have Charles Murray's Human Accomplishment: The Pursuit of Excellence in the Arts and Sciences, 800 B.C. to 1950 (2003) right here. I recommend that you purchase this book. Now if anyone in the gallery also has this book, take the time to flip to pages 297, 298, 301, 302, 303. Check out the maps on these pages which cover significant accomplishments in art, science, music (especially music), and literature. Now compare Southern and Western Germany to Northern and Eastern Germany.

>>>The chances of you getting cancer from secondhand tobacco smoke are extremely remote, you would essentially have to play poker in some cigar smoke filled backroom full time for it to happen.

Lets see your evidence. Link me to some academic studies (e.g., no trash off the internet).

Ill link you to a debunking of the EPA study, EPA study (http://www.davehitt.com/facts/epa.html).

Lets see your evidence. Link me to some academic studies (e.g., no trash off the internet).

think of television

Invented by an American Mormon, Farnsworth.

It's hard, but I might as well forgive American Mormons for this.

http://www.ornl.gov/sci/csd/Presentations/tsrc99_nicotine_in_ets.pdf

Will you trust the results presentation of Oak Ridge National Laboratories study on the subject?

German study HERE (http://193.78.190.200/39/cabin.pdf) (pdf)

"We found a rather remarkably low SMR [standardized incidence ratio] for lung cancer among female cabin attendants and no increase for male cabin attendants, indicating that smoking and exposure to passive smoking may not play an important role in mortality in this group. Smoking during airplane flights was permitted in Germany until the mid-1990s, and smoking is still not banned on all charter flights. The risk of cardiovascular disease mortality for male and female air crew was surprisingly low (reaching statistical significance among women)."

Another study -

Multicenter case-control study of exposure to environmental tobacco smoke and lung cancer in Europe (http://193.78.190.200/2/11/jnci.htm)

FULL PDF (http://193.78.190.200/2/12/1440.pdf)


Personally, I think it's a hysteria.

Fingels cave was pretty good , a master piece.
The composer was German , Jewish and out of favour with AH.

The composer was German , Jewish
A German Jew? Is that sort of like a fiery glacier?
Jewish and out of favour with AH.
Imagine that.

It's hard, but I might as well forgive American Mormons for this.
He hated what it became too if it makes you feel better, he wanted it to be an education advance.

They do exist.

And I want it to be obsolete.

About the German National Socialists, I was curious about the reasoning behind the support of vegetarianism. I think they were just ignorant or misinformed on the issue. If they wanted a healthier population, promoting vegetarianism is definitely not the way to go. A campaign to discourage consumption of sugar and other refined carbs would be.

Well, not all German NSs were opposed to meat eating. Obviously.

I would guess that the vegans held their position on aesthetic (rather than moral or medical) grounds. Some people just find meat eating to be disgusting.

Finally, while some NSs discouraged meat eating there was never any legislation that forced people to give up meat.

Personally, I support conservation (except of Jews, the one true cancer of nature) but not veganism. I adore the beauty of nature, but know that her awesome beauty is matched by her cruelty. See my parody "Lion Agrees to Lay Down With Lamb" for some satirical lampooning of the hippy view of nature. :D

I would guess that the vegans held their position on aesthetic (rather than moral or medical) grounds. Some people just find meat eating to be disgusting.


Thats stupid( unless you mean they didn't like the taste).

Thats stupid( unless you mean they didn't like the taste).

My guess is stupid or their view was stupid? I could be wrong on this one. Perhaps Fade can fill us in.

IF that was their view, then it was stupid.

It was probably a combination of love for non-human animals and faulty health beliefs, which are still popular (though declining).

When will cats show their love for mice, or lions for lambs? Every being has an equal right to exist. We are all God's children. :D

Oh, they show their love for mice and lambs all the time. I particularly love lamb roasted with garlic. Lions love their lamb a little more on the rare side...

That is a good point. Lions do love lambs, they just have a different way of expressing their love. We should respect that.

About the German National Socialists, I was curious about the reasoning behind the support of vegetarianism. I think they were just ignorant or misinformed on the issue. If they wanted a healthier population, promoting vegetarianism is definitely not the way to go. A campaign to discourage consumption of sugar and other refined carbs would be.

The problem with a fascist state, or any state perhaps, is that it is extremely susceptible to becoming a cult of personality. Hitler didn't like meat and had a weakness for sweet German pastries so he thought everyone else should.

Televesion was invented by a German named Paul Nipkow.

The problem with a fascist state, or any state perhaps, is that it is extremely susceptible to becoming a cult of personality. Hitler didn't like meat and had a weakness for sweet German pastries so he thought everyone else should.

That Hitler was a Vegeterian was discovered after he died. His personal life was kept a secret.
Vegitarianism was rather propegated out of economic reasons, since Germany tried to become a selfsufficent and autark nation. Eating meat once a week was considered sufficient. We need our money for more precious raw meterials, than spending it for beef imports.
It had absolutely nothing to do with Hitlers personal favours, because he was very tolerant on that subject. His staff could eat as much meat as they wanted - even in his presence, and he didn't mind.
the only thing that bothered him was, when people smoked in his presence.

@ Doc Brandt: The book is available meanwhile in German. The publishing house of Tolkien's works. :D

http://kulturfibelverlag.de/Images/Bilder%20htm/Literatur/Blitzkrieg,-Dienstr%E4ume.jpg

Oh, they show their love for mice and lambs all the time. I particularly love lamb roasted with garlic. Lions love their lamb a little more on the rare side...
No lambs on the savannah so I think lions have a certain unfamiliarity with the taste of mutton cooked or otherwise.

Steamship makes valid point , its almost an extention of the "Hitler cult".
Meat is bad for you , see te fuhrer is a veg. only man .
"Eat like Adolf" if you like.

The book does it make mention of other advances in Medical care and ethics like the T4 project and the killing of the nations vunerable .
I know I keep coming back to this but it does so much undermnie all the propaganda of the smiling health camping german youth so infused with life vigour and the outdoors , helping on the fram and building gliders , marching and living a simple happy disicplined life under the safe guardianship of the party and the fuhrere ever watchful for the well being of the nation.
This is the image , this book does not I feel reflect the truth as it has been well proven to be.
Do you really think that Doctors in other nations though that smoking , drinking to excess and eating large amount s of meat was good for you.
There is a whole host of ilneses , none of them new , many of them being treated for a thousand years whch relate to a poorly balanced or over indulged taste for foods which in excess have unhealthy results.
The propaganda is again the main push here , but why tell the truth.

think of television

Invented by an American Mormon, Farnsworth.

The Krauts are superior to the other races of Europe, but not the inbred Alpine papist constituency which formed the early support base of the nazi party.

Unless you spend day in day out in a small poker room where everyone is smoking cigars this is junk science.

You don't seem to know very much about European history.

Most of German high culture (i.e. its great poets, playwrights, philosophers, and composers) was contributed by southern Germans (i.e. Swabians, Bavarians, or German upper Austrians, who are basically Bavarian in dialect and culture).

You don't seem to know very much about European history.

Most of German high culture (i.e. its great poets, playwrights, philosophers, and composers) was contributed by southern Germans (i.e. Swabians, Bavarians, or German upper Austrians, who are basically Bavarian in dialect and culture).But what about its scientist and engineers?

As for philosophers Kant( although this is nothing to be proud of as what ive read of Kant's philosophy is awful and illogical) and Nietzche( who I like on the whole despite that he later went mad) were born in Prussia.

But what about its scientist and engineers?

As for philosophers Kant( although this is nothing to be proud of as what ive read of Kant's philosophy is awful and illogical) and Nietzche( who I like on the whole despite that he later went mad) were born in Prussia.

Germany's physicists, biologists, and mathematicians of note were from various parts of the country. Not disproportionately Prussian but not disproportionately south German either.

The point of my post was not an attack on Prussians, but rather to point out how asinine and ignorant your generalization about south Germans was.

Most of German high culture (i.e. its great poets, playwrights, philosophers, and composers) was contributed by southern Germans (i.e. Swabians, Bavarians, or German upper Austrians, who are basically Bavarian in dialect and culture).

It is remarkable, when one thinks of it, that NS Germany was able to have in its SS White men of almost every ethnic European background.
Unity amidst the diversity of our folk.

Perhaps that is why MacDonald is so very right that NS is the antidote to the current illness of the West.

Dividing our folk is strongly contraindicated, something you have always understood.

Those dividing our race, such as the the Jews and their agents, must be confronted at every instance.

The SS and Himmler who put such stock in racial purity as a shortage of man power tke its toll was quick to drop the racial aspect , by 44/45 the racial standards of the Waffen SS had ceased to be.
Its somewhat ironic that on one hand the party would be using medicine to advance their propaganda whilst at the same time would be doing its utmost to keep secret murder at the hands of those who did so with the Fuhrer's blessing. Out of sight , out of mind.
Germans , killed by Germans and not a Jew in sight. In this instance the jews cannot be blamed.