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BodewinTheSilent
12-02-2004, 01:57 PM
I’ll post this excerpt from the H. L. Mencken essay the Anglo-Saxon here, for Anglophiles to revise.

H. L. Mencken - The Anglo-Saxon qua American temperament when war looms on the horizon:

So far as I can make out there is no record in history of any Anglo-Saxon nation entering upon any great war without allies. The French have done it, the Dutch have done it, the Germans have done it, the Japs have done it, and even such inferior nations as the Danes, the Spaniards, the Boers and the Greeks have done it, but never the English or Americans. Can you imagine the United States resolutely facing a war in which the odds against it were as huge as they were against Spain in 1898? The facts of history are wholly against any such fancy. The Anglo-Saxon always tries to take a gang with him when he goes into battle, and even when he has it behind him he is very uneasy, and prone to fall into panic at the first threat of genuine danger. Here I put an unimpeachably Anglo-Saxon witness on the stand, to wit, the late Charles W. Eliot. I find him saying, in an article quoted with approbation by the Congressional Record, that during the Revolutionary War the colonists now hymned so eloquently in the school-books "fell into a condition of despondency from which nothing but the steadfastness of Washington and the Continental army and the aid from France saved them," and that "when the War of 1812 brought grave losses a considerable portion of the population experienced a moral collapse, from which they were rescued only by the exertions of a few thoroughly patriotic statesmen and the exploits of three or four American frigates on the seas"--to say nothing of an enterprising Corsican gentleman, Bonaparte by name.
In both these wars the Americans had enormous and obvious advantages, in terrain, in allies and in men; nevertheless, they fought, in the main, very badly, and from the first shot to the last a majority of them stood in favor of making peace on almost any terms. The Mexican and Spanish Wars I pass over as perhaps too obscenely ungallant to be discussed at all; of the former, U. S. Grant, who fought in it, said that it was "the most unjust war ever waged by a stronger against a weaker nation." Who remembers that, during the Spanish War, the whole Atlantic Coast trembled in fear of the Spaniards' feeble fleet--that all New England had hysterics every time a strange coal-barge was sighted on the sky-line, that the safe-deposit boxes of Boston were emptied and their contents transferred to Worcester, and that the Navy had to organize a patrol to save the coast towns from depopulation? Perhaps those Reds, atheists and pro-Germans remember it who also remember that during World War I the entire country went wild with fear of an enemy who, without the aid of divine intervention, obviously could not strike it a blow at all--and that the great moral victory was gained at last with the assistance of twenty-one allies and at odds of eight to one.
But the American Civil War remains? Does it, indeed? The almost unanimous opinion of the North, in 1861, was that it would be over after a few small battles; the first soldiers were actually enlisted for but three months. When, later on, it turned unexpectedly into a severe struggle, recruits had to be driven to the front by force, and the only Northerners remaining in favor of going on were Abraham Lincoln, a few ambitious generals and the profiteers. I turn to Dr. Eliot again. "In the closing year of the war," he says, "large portions of the Democratic party in the North and of the Republican party, advocated surrender to the Confederacy, so downhearted were they." Downhearted at odds of three to one! The South was plainly more gallant, but even the gallantry of the South was largely illusory. The Confederate leaders, when the war began, adopted at once the traditional Anglo-Saxon device of seeking allies. They tried and expected to get the aid of England, and they actually came very near succeeding. When hopes in that direction began to fade (i.e., when England concluded that tackling the North would be dangerous), the common people of the Confederacy threw up the sponge, and so the catastrophe, when it came at last, was mainly internal. The South failed to bring the quaking North to a standstill because, to borrow a phrase that Dr. Eliot uses in another connection, it "experienced a moral collapse of unprecedented depth and duration." The folks at home failed to support the troops in the field, and the troops in the field began to desert. Even so early as Shiloh, indeed, many Confederate regiments were already refusing to fight.
This reluctance for desperate chances and hard odds, so obvious in the military record of the English-speaking nations, is also conspicuous in times of peace. What a man of another and superior stock almost always notices, living among so-called Anglo-Saxons, is (a) their incapacity for prevailing in fair rivalry, either in trade, in the fine arts or in what is called learning--in brief, their general incompetence, and (b) their invariable effort to make up for this incapacity by putting some inequitable burden upon their rivals, usually by force. The Frenchman, I believe, is the worst of chauvinists, but once he admits a foreigner to his country he at least treats that foreigner fairly, and does not try to penalize him absurdly for his mere foreignness. The Anglo-Saxon American is always trying to do it; his history is a history of recurrent outbreaks of blind rage against people who have begun to worst him. Such movements would be inconceivable in an efficient and genuinely self-confident people, wholly assured of their superiority, and they would be equally inconceivable in a truly gallant and courageous people, disdaining unfair advantages and overwhelming odds. Theoretically launched against some imaginary inferiority in the non-Anglo-Saxon man, either as patriot, as democrat or as Christian, they are actually launched at his general superiority, his greater fitness to survive in the national environment. The effort is always to penalize him for winning in fair fight, to handicap him in such a manner that he will sink to the general level of the Anglo-Saxon population, and, if possible, even below it. Such devices, of course, never have the countenance of the Anglo-Saxon minority that is authentically superior, and hence self-confident and tolerant. But that minority is pathetically small, and it tends steadily to grow smaller and feebler. The communal laws and the communal mores are made by the folk, and they offer all the proof that is necessary, not only of its general inferiority, but also of its alarmed awareness of that inferiority. The normal American of the "pure-blooded" majority goes to rest every night with an uneasy feeling that there is a burglar under the bed, and he gets up every morning with a sickening fear that his underwear has been stolen.

FadeTheButcher
12-02-2004, 08:46 PM
BodewinTheSilent: "I’ll post this excerpt from the H. L. Mencken essay the Anglo-Saxon here, for Anglophiles to revise."

FadeTheButcher: History has its losers just as it has its winners. Experience has demonstrated to me that it is best to let the losers wallow in their victimhood, as success speaks for itself. We have better more important matters to deal with. :)

BodewinTheSilent
12-02-2004, 09:09 PM
History has its losers just as it has its winners.

For sure.

Experience has demonstrated to me that it is best to let the losers wallow in their victimhood, as success speaks for itself.

Okay. Mencken, of course, was not a loser. Do you find his criticism of the Anglo-Saxon to be unfair?

We have better more important matters to deal with.

For sure.

Patrick
12-02-2004, 09:30 PM
FadeTheButcher: History has its losers just as it has its winners. Experience has demonstrated to me that it is best to let the losers wallow in their victimhood, as success speaks for itself. We have better more important matters to deal with. :)

Not a sentiment I expected to read from an Alabama born-and-bred boy. :p

FadeTheButcher
12-02-2004, 09:46 PM
Not a sentiment I expected to read from an Alabama born-and-bred boy. :pPatrick,

You are still a damn Yankee. :)

FadeTheButcher
12-02-2004, 09:51 PM
Bodewin: "Okay. Mencken, of course, was not a loser. Do you find his criticism of the Anglo-Saxon to be unfair?"

FadeTheButcher: Sure. The greatest war in American history was the War Between the States. The North defeated the South without any allies. The United States crushed Imperial Japan more or less on its own accord. Germany had allies in World War I and World War II. Germany still lost both of those wars. What major war has Germany engaged in without allies?

BodewinTheSilent
12-02-2004, 11:02 PM
FadeTheButcher: Sure. The greatest war in American history was the War Between the States. The North defeated the South without any allies.

Although I would not consider it an active alliance the Russian Navy stationed a number of its ships in American ports. This was certainly a deterrent to British intervention on behalf of the South. I would not use the War between the States in my reckoning of this question anyway.

"The European situation leading to these naval visits was bound up with the perennial Polish question, which (because of factors that cannot be detailed here) occasioned a joint remonstrance against Russia (April, 1863) by England, France, and Austria. Anticipating the possibility, of war, Russian statesmen considered it unwise to have their ships in home waters where they might be trapped by the British navy. A visit to some friendly neutral country was indicated; and American ports, in addition to other advantages, offered a point of departure for operations against enemy commerce in case war should break out, as well as for possible attacks upon enemy colonies. In addition it was hoped that such a placing of Russian ships would exercise a restraining influence upon war tendencies in England.
To speak of the American Civil War as the occasion of the sending of the Russian ships would be incorrect, and even at the time there were some Americans who suspected that more selfish motives were behind the Russian move. Yet, as Thomas A. Bailey has proved, "a majority of interested citizens at the time-and certainly an overwhelming majority later-appear to have accepted the visit of the fleets as primarily a gesture of friendship, with the strong possibility of an alliance and open assistance against common enemies." Americans made much of the Russian visitors; Welles extended the courtesies of the Brooklyn navy yard to Lisovskii; and Popov's assistance in extinguishing a fire at San Francisco ingratiated him with the people of that city. Indeed, since Popov was ready if necessary to act against Confederate cruisers, "Russia came very near becoming our active ally." Thus midway in the war the stakes of diplomacy had been won by the United States. The full effect, however, of Southern international failure was not yet evident, and future events in the foreign sphere would depend upon a combination of factors. While diplomatic maneuvers and the personal conduct of diplomats were never unimportant, the outcome abroad continually reflected events at home. Step by step the influence of Lincoln's emancipation policy and of Northern military advances was manifest abroad."

Source: "The Civil War and Reconstruction" (The American Question Abroad in the Civil War (Chapter 20) by Randall and Donald.

The United States crushed Imperial Japan more or less on its own accord. Germany had allies in World War I and World War II. Germany still lost both of those wars. What major war has Germany engaged in without allies?

More Mencken:

"The case of World War II was even more striking. The two enemies that the United States tackled had been softened by years of a hard struggle with desperate foes, and those foes continued to fight on. Neither enemy could muster even a tenth of 'the materials that the American forces had the use of. And at the end both were outnumbered in men by odds truly enormous."

(In A Mencken Chrestomathy, New York: Knopf, 1949, p175)

In regards to: What major war has Germany engaged in without allies?

From 1871 or prior to 1871? For example: The Franco-Prussian War or the Franco-German War?

FadeTheButcher
12-02-2004, 11:28 PM
Bodewin: "Although I would not consider it an active alliance the Russian Navy stationed a number of its ships in American ports. This was certainly a deterrent to British intervention on behalf of the South. I would not use the War between the States in my reckoning of this question anyway."

FadeTheButcher: The Russians played no role whatsoever in the War Between the States. Britain only recognized the Confederacy as a belligerent as well and did not actively interfere on behalf of the South, largely for economic reasons, as the war spurned cotton production in Egypt and India. So I am not seeing the point you are making here, as the War Between the States was entirely an American conflict.

Bodewin: "The case of World War II was even more striking. The two enemies that the United States tackled had been softened by years of a hard struggle with desperate foes, and those foes continued to fight on. Neither enemy could muster even a tenth of 'the materials that the American forces had the use of. And at the end both were outnumbered in men by odds truly enormous." (In A Mencken Chrestomathy, New York: Knopf, 1949, p175)

FadeTheButcher: That's nonsense. That is certainly true in the case of Germany but it is not true in the case of Japan. The war between America and Japanese was primarily a naval conflict and the Japanese had hardly been softened in that regard on account of their expansionism in East Asia. But yeah, the Japanese were simply outnumbered in the end. They were crushed by the overwhelming industrial strength of the United States. It didn't help matters to have the rest of the Anglo-Saxon world against them either. Two other examples would be the Mexican War and the Spanish-American War.

Bodewin: "From 1871 or prior to 1871?"

FadeTheButcher: What war is he referring to?

BodewinTheSilent
12-02-2004, 11:44 PM
Do you conisder it The Franco-Prussian War, or can it also be considered the Franco-German War?

FadeTheButcher
12-03-2004, 12:49 AM
Everyone say hey to friedrich braun.

BodewinTheSilent
12-03-2004, 12:57 AM
Everyone say hey to friedrich braun.

Is that in reference to me? If so I don't know what you are talking about. I'm not Friedrich Braun.

FadeTheButcher
12-03-2004, 01:03 AM
He has copied and pasted your article on another forum.

BodewinTheSilent
12-03-2004, 01:12 AM
He has copied and pasted your article on another forum.

Yes, I know. It is not a problem. I post there as well.

Carrigan
12-03-2004, 02:11 AM
Everyone say hey to friedrich braun.
Greetings, Boudouin de Braunoulogne. ;)

otto_von_bismarck
12-03-2004, 04:32 AM
FadeTheButcher: Sure. The greatest war in American history was the War Between the States. The North defeated the South without any allies.

Russia and Prussia, they( all but) threatened war on England and France if they entered the war on the side of the South.

luh_windan
12-03-2004, 05:02 AM
What does it matter that the Anglo-Saxons haven't fought a "great" war alone? Why would a people choose to do this when they don't have to? As far as wars which might not meet Mencken's "great" criteria, Queen Anne's, The French and Indian War, and Jenkin's Ear come to mind. Being the resourceful people that we are, the need to fight a "great" war alone simply hasn't come up. Is there anything to suggest it never will, or that we aren't able? I don't think so.

Gus
12-03-2004, 05:07 AM
I also fail to see why a reluctance to enter wars w/o allies is a fault.

I would classify it as wisdom, but then again I dont believe losing is noble.

otto_von_bismarck
12-03-2004, 05:10 AM
I also fail to see why a reluctance to enter wars w/o allies is a fault.

I would classify it as wisdom, but then again I dont believe losing is noble.
I agree, gotta play the game to win.