-------------

:: Allied Plans for the Annihilation of the German People

So when are the Allies going to get around to annihilating the Germans? Germany is one of the wealthiest nations in the world today. :|

The Morgenthau Plan was about de-industrialising Germany and reducing it to a divided and powerless agricultural society. Yet Germany today is one of the most highly industrialised and wealthiest countries in the world. In fact, as I pointed out to wintermute, by 1963, West Germany had a foreign trade volume second only to the United States. So answer the question: when are the Allies going to annihilate the Germans? :p

In fact, as I pointed out to wintermute, by 1963, West Germany had a foreign trade volume second only to the United States. So answer the question: when are the Allies going to annihilate the Germans?

Isn't murdering 9 - 13 million before deciding that full implementation of the Morgenthau plan would give too much to the Soviets, who had emerged as a tactical rival, enough for you, Fade?

That you use such cheap, rhetorical mocking, to cover for materials that you are plainly unfamiliar with, is unforgiveable.

Familiarize yourself with Morgenthau, Patton, Eisenhower, Hoover, before making such ignorant comments about the war. We have at least two allied plans for annihillation of Germany - Kaufman's and Morgenthau's. We have evidence that at least one was partially enacted, leading to approximately 10 million deaths. We have evidence that factions within the American governenment fought against full implementation, including Hoover and Patton. And finally, we have evidence that this mostrous endeavor was foreshortened by a dawning comprehension that the Soviet Union might pose a threat to the US, even though they were allies during the war.

Your inability to understand faction, to understand that situations change, to understand that comprehension of changing sitations often dawns on an army or government slowly, as a result of agitation within ranks, is shocking.

Either you are a moron or you are engaging in rhetorical manuevers that stink to high heaven.

For a man who regards every jotting and scribble in Goebel's diary as Holy Write for the fate of Europe after the war, I'm surprised that you have no interest in the works of Morgenthau and Kaufmann, which are a thousand times more damning.

WM

Funny that Brandt brings up the Morgenthau plan, his idol Hitler himself ordered a scorched earth policy in Germany that would have accomplished the same objective if his orders were carried out.

:: That you use such cheap, rhetorical mocking, to cover for materials that you are plainly unfamiliar with, is unforgiveable.

wintermute makes the assumption here that I am 'plainly unfamiliar' with his sources, when actually, not only have I read both of them in they past, but they have been extensively discussed on this website in numerous threads.

:: Isn't murdering 9 - 13 million before deciding that full implementation of the Morgenthau plan would give too much to the Soviets, who had emerged as a tactical rival, enough for you, Fade?

There never was any murder of nine to thirteen millions Germans after the war. If wintermute was relying upon the work of real historians as opposed to pseudoscholars then he would know this.

:: Familiarize yourself with Morgenthau, Patton, Eisenhower, Hoover, before making such ignorant comments about the war

I have already responded to your accusations in the other thread. We will let the gallery decide who is truly 'ignorant' in this regard.

:: We have at least two allied plans for annihillation of Germany - Kaufman's and Morgenthau's.

Yet Germany was not annihilated, wintermute. It was rebuilt with American aid and integrated into the Western defence alliance.

:: We have evidence that at least one was partially enacted, leading to approximately 10 million deaths.

You don't have any evidence of that. Such findings have already been ruthlessly criticized by real historians.

:: We have evidence that factions within the American governenment fought against full implementation, including Hoover and Patton.

Yet it was never implemented in the first place because the AMG on the ground followed a different policy. Do you agree with James Bacque that The Holocaust actually happened, wintermute? :p

:: And finally, we have evidence that this mostrous endeavor was foreshortened by a dawning comprehension that the Soviet Union might pose a threat to the US, even though they were allies during the war.

Very funny how Morgenthau bitterly attacking the AMG for not getting his way, eh?

:: Your inability to understand faction, to understand that situations change, to understand that comprehension of changing sitations often dawns on an army or government slowly, as a result of agitation within ranks, is shocking.

I have cited the work of real historians. I think we let the gallery decide who actually displays a shocking ignorance of history here.

:: Either you are a moron or you are engaging in rhetorical manuevers that stink to high heaven.

Insults are not an argument.

:: For a man who regards every jotting and scribble in Goebel's diary as Holy Write for the fate of Europe after the war, I'm surprised that you have no interest in the works of Morgenthau and Kaufmann, which are a thousand times more damning.

Feel free to respond to the other thread.

- "I also cant find that post where the two census from 1945 and 1949 were shown and from which one could cleary see the populationdecline (allthough refugee-masses kept coming in from the east)."


Oh, I would really like to see this post.

Can you now tell us whether Bacque gives us results of those 1946 and 1950 censuses?


Petr

Could you PLEASE give footnotes to these numbers?

(Even if in German!)


And what do you mean by

"in the west sectors"?


Petr

My post was deleted I must echo what fade has said , for a planned act this "annihilation" does seem to be a very long term undertaking. :rolleyes:

Do you actually believe this Dr. Brandt ?
Why the long term nature of the "plan" ?
When will its goal be achieved ?

Some anecdotal evidence;

The father of a friend of mine was a prisoner (I wont say POW because the allies unlawfully stripped them of their Geneva rights just as they are doing now in Guant. Bay and Iraq) in one of those large outdoor holding pens. He told about an incident where the Americans amused themselves by throwing in bread and when there was a big rush of starving men towards the bread the Americans lobbed grenades at them with predictable results.

Now if they could do this sort of thing with impunity it suggests that the higher ups were turning a blind eye, thus condoning even encouraging such monstrosities.

I heard the same storys from karpato-germans in slovakia. they spoke better of the Russians than of the Yankees.

Curiously enough my friend's father said something similar. He regarded the ordinary Russians as worthy of respect whereas the Americans were unspeakable for him. He was on the eastern and western fronts. He said that the Americans would **** themselves at the sight of a German helmet! They relied on airpower to a great extent. Without air superiority they would never have got past the likes of the Leibstandarte or Das Reich.

No one would condone or support the maltreatment of POWs.

If I really wanted to be an utter b*****d I would easily say anecdotal evidence means nothing and proves nothing , I could reflect back to you the scorn and contempt poured on similar tales and worse told by camp surivors and further point out treatment of English POWs at the hands of Liebstandarte in 1940.
( Dr. Brandt rubbished and supported these killings in a thread on the previous phora. He stated they were justifed as a reprisal for the murder of a luftwaffe man something which if it took place was totally divorced from what happened in the barn. In short it was a cop out).

For my part I am prepared to take what you say on face value and agree with you that it was a wrong done thing and any such treatment of prisoners is deserving of harsh punishment.
I wonder what frontline experience these american soldiers had.

An ex-Uboat man told me that when a POW at Lisahally in londonderry in 1945 it was noticed that the standard of rations declined for a time in mid 45 and the treatment of them become much worse , something which caused annoyance to this day.
I did not agree with that and I condem the treatement you report as well 100%.

The americans and aircover some troops more battle hardened than others , the guys who held at Bastonge spring to mind.
On the other hand some american MTBs which spent time in Dover refused to go to sea beacuse they had no ice cream , I have that on good authority , but don't see it as being a fair description of the american navy.

He said that the Americans would **** themselves at the sight of a German helmet! They relied on airpower to a great extent. Without air superiority they would never have got past the likes of the Leibstandarte or Das Reich.

I believe German prisoners actually joked about how it took 10 American shermans just to knock out ONE Panzer, and it was only because the Americans an 11th did they stand a chance.

I honestly doubt that the Russians would have treated the Germans better than the Americans did, given how they treated their own people. Hell, Russians taken prisoner by Germans who managed to escape were sent to the gulags.

This "Russians better than Americans" re treatment of prisoners thing is, I suspect, more based on the fact that most Nazis/WNs/whatever rather prefer Russia to the US in terms of ethnic makeup, public opinion about Jews, etc.

I honestly doubt that the Russians would have treated the Germans better than the Americans did, given how they treated their own people. Hell, Russians taken prisoner by Germans who managed to escape were sent to the gulags.

This "Russians better than Americans" re treatment of prisoners thing is, I suspect, more based on the fact that most Nazis/WNs/whatever rather prefer Russia to the US in terms of ethnic makeup, public opinion about Jews, etc.

You know, take a moment and compare comments made by Russian vets to those of American vets about how they felt about killing Germans. You will find that the Russians are more remorsable and will often regret having to kill fellow human beings. I saw this myself during my trips to Russia.

There was even a documentary a few years ago about Waffen-SS vet visiting the battlefield at Kursk and they were greeted by Red Army vets, as the narrator said "These Russian apparently dont hold any grudges". And the Waffen-SS vet even laid a reef at a Soviet war monument to commerate the dead on both sides.

I sincerly doubt any American vet would be willing to do that. Even to this day many of them still see the Germans as monsters who needed to be crushed under the boot. I remember vet laughing about how the time he killed his German on D-Day.

That is mostly after the fact, though. English veterans have also met with Germans at reunions similar to the one you described.

No one would condone or support the maltreatment of POWs

First of all it happened and it is happening right now. Secondly the entire German armed forces were illegally stripped of their POW status.

If I really wanted to be an utter b*****d I would easily say anecdotal evidence means nothing and proves nothing , I could reflect back to you the scorn and contempt poured on similar tales and worse told by camp surivors and further point out treatment of English POWs at the hands of Liebstandarte in 1940.

The source of this story is unimpeachable. One major difference between these stories and the tales form the holohoax is that the Germans affected are not whining for all the world to hear and milking billions at the same time. Another one is that, the tales of the holohoax started off as atrocity propaganda - the very first stories emanate from New York and the source throughout the war is the JTA.

My scorn for those holohoaxers is well placed - I can show how they are liars - its not difficult - and you probably know that hence your reluctance to engage in that discussion. I mean, are you prepared to believe someone who, for example, testifies to physical impossibilities?

So tell us about the treatment of the English (sic) at the hands of the Leibstandarte.

I wonder what frontline experience these american soldiers had.

Getting their asses whopped by the LAH I imagine.

On the other hand some american MTBs which spent time in Dover refused to go to sea beacuse they had no ice cream , I have that on good authority , but don't see it as being a fair description of the american navy.

Yes, and each army formation had its own mobile coca cola bottling plant. You are familiar with the scene in Apocalypse Now when they arrive at the recreation base in the jungle to refuel? Then you will recall Willard's reflections on the meaning of all that.

Perun said;

I believe German prisoners actually joked about how it took 10 American shermans just to knock out ONE Panzer, and it was only because the Americans an 11th did they stand a chance.

Indeed. Maybe I should revise what I said; without air superiority they wouldnt have got past Michael Wittman never mind the rest of the LAH. :D

OK, let's make something clear here:

I do not doubt that Germans suffered horrendously after the WW II. The massive way they were driven from their ancient homelands is mind-boggling.

But, anyway, right now I cannot with good conscience believe in some 10-million level post-war casualties.

2-3 million at least and 4-5 million at most, I'd say, expellees, POWs and others all counted together.

Like I said, Michael A. Hoffman II, American revisionist of German origin, doesn't seem to push ultra-high figures:

"When the post-war expulsions and pogroms were over, two million German civilians were dead and fourteen million driven from their ancestral lands in one of the greatest acts of population-transfer in modern history."

http://www.hoffman-info.com/wash.html


I found a certain commentary on that 1946 census:

" Dewey A. Browder (Austin Peay State University) corroborated this information. He showed that Bacque manipulated statistics by adding expellees and repatriated POWs to an early 1946 census that actually already included more than 1.5 million expellees and repatriates in
addition to the unrepatriated POWs. In counting these people twice,
Bacque finds that there should have been nearly 74 million people in
Germany in 1950 and cries mass murder when that year's census falls
short by 6 million. Professor Browder explained that he personally
pointed out this mistake to Bacque while the Canadian author was
revising his manuscript for publication in English. Bacque, however,
failed to correct his information. "

http://www.newsgate.ch/de/de.soc.medien/msg01461.html


The study continues.


Petr

The study continues.

And there are new entries in the debate on Bacque's side, too.

Interested parties here are directed to John Dietrich's The Morgenthau Plan: Soviet Influence on American Postwar Policy:

In the Aftermath of War "The plan was designed to completely destroy the German economy, enslave millions of her citizens, and exterminate as many as 20 million people": John Dietrich, who served six years in the Defense Intelligence Agency, takes a hard, revisionist look at American policy toward Germany after WWII in The Morgenthau Plan: Soviet Influence on American Postwar Policy. Charting its origins, development and brief implementation, the author argues that the secretary of the treasury's plan for the demilitarization of Germany "thoroughly reflected" Roosevelt's opinions on postwar strategy (and that the president may have bribed Churchill to sign off on it); that the Soviet Union was the plan's sole beneficiary; and that the plan had far greater effects than anyone involved cared to admit.

The above is a Publisher's Weekly review from the Amazon site, which carries the book.

For for disclosure, Petr, the source that you give is the Nizkor project, a holocaust site. I think that fact should be brought forward.

Your Hoffman quote is about the expellees only, and gives the low figure. It does not deal with those in the camps, or with starved civilians. The exact number dead in the expulsion - which isn't going to appear on a German census, given that the dead would have shuffled off this mortal coil while in transit (it was a forced march) varies from 1.5 million at the extreme low end, which is not much sited these days, to 6 million, which is not cited in public for reasons I am sure you can imagine.

Also, for interested parties here - and this means you, Petr - I have brought back the most valuable piece of information possible: Bacque's email address.

I think you can both get the figures that you want, and also present the arguments against his conclusions that you want, and recieve a complete explanation. How's that?

jabacque@csolve.net

Hope it's still good!

Wintermute

The Morgenthau Plan was about de-industrialising Germany and reducing it to a divided and powerless agricultural society. Yet Germany today is one of the most highly industrialised and wealthiest countries in the world. In fact, as I pointed out to wintermute, by 1963, West Germany had a foreign trade volume second only to the United States. So answer the question: when are the Allies going to annihilate the Germans? :p

Golitsyn explained in his latest and authoritative work, The Perestroika Deception, that the Soviets yet anticipate internal disorders in the West to eventually develop as a manifestation of the "internal contradictions" which plague "capitalist" regimes in Marxist theory. The Soviets hope then to exploit these disorders to the end of obtaining global geo-political supremacy.

We might reasonably anticipate the development of such disorders at the middle of the present century, based on present ethno-demographic trends. An aging native population confronted by and burdensomely dependent upon a youthful alien population is a recipe for disorder. Since the Soviets have succeeded with their strategic deception of the West to the extent of having completely eliminated a military frontier protecting the West, we may reasonably anticipate that they and their Chinese allies will walk tactical nuclear weapons into the vicinity of all vital Western facilities, including, of course, those in Germany (to address the question specifically).

The Allies will thus have annihilated Germany.
*

You know, take a moment and compare comments made by Russian vets to those of American vets about how they felt about killing Germans. You will find that the Russians are more remorsable and will often regret having to kill fellow human beings. I saw this myself during my trips to Russia.

There was even a documentary a few years ago about Waffen-SS vet visiting the battlefield at Kursk and they were greeted by Red Army vets, as the narrator said "These Russian apparently dont hold any grudges". And the Waffen-SS vet even laid a reef at a Soviet war monument to commerate the dead on both sides.

I sincerly doubt any American vet would be willing to do that. Even to this day many of them still see the Germans as monsters who needed to be crushed under the boot. I remember vet laughing about how the time he killed his German on D-Day.


The Americans did not have Siberian gulags. And of course one could probably find more American accounts of individual soldiers in English than Russian accounts of individual soldiers. Because the Russian accounts would most likely be available overwhelmingly in Russian, because Russia had less literacy than the US, etc.

It was the Russians that tore apart Poland, Hungary, Czechslovakia, and Eastern Germany as they advanced towards Berlin. The Russians, not Americans, were the ones famous for, say, raping German women, or even women of the Western countries of Eastern Europe.

Again, the Russians treated their own civilians and soldiers so badly, I really find it hard to believe that they would have treated German civilians and soldiers at even the same level. They were known for ****ing MARCHING THEIR MEN INTO THEIR OWN ARTILLERY for crying out loud. You can usually tell how the enemy will be treated by an army by looking at how it treats its own people.

The fact that there are more anecdotes of bad treatment by Americans than by Russians, if in fact there are, might actually suggest that one was more likely to survive bad treatment by Americans, and thus be available to leave an anecdote.

Or it might suggest that German troops were more likely to surrender to American troops, because on the Eastern front the Germans knew that surrendering to the Russians wasn't too bright.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/b/bacque-james/ambrose-001.html Nizkor????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
I've caught them lying so many times--sorry...Their motives are so very corrupt, that I can't take this seriously.

cui bono? The one who publishes stuff that pisses off the powerful ones or the one who's taken money to lie time after time??????

There never was any murder of nine to thirteen millions Germans after the war. If wintermute was relying upon the work of real historians as opposed to pseudoscholars then he would know this. Would that be "real historians" such as Nizkor and others paid by the Hollowhoax PR managers, or "real historians" such as employees of universities and/or writers for mainstream publishers, whose income and whole way of life are based on their NOT contradicting the history prescribed by the PTB? You can't be so naive as not to know the boundaries on what a "real historian" can write and still retain his rank as a "real historian--can you?

It should be brought home to the Germans that Germany's ruthless warfare and the fanatical Nazi resistance have destroyed the German economy and made chaos and suffering inevitable and that the Germans cannot escape responsibility for what they have brought upon themselves.In other words, the Germans were being punished for having the temerity to defend their country from barbaric foreign invaders.

"Golitsyn explained in his latest and authoritative work, The Perestroika Deception, that the Soviets yet anticipate internal disorders in the West to eventually develop as a manifestation of the "internal contradictions" which plague "capitalist" regimes in Marxist theory. The Soviets hope then to exploit these disorders to the end of obtaining global geo-political supremacy.

We might reasonably anticipate the development of such disorders at the middle of the present century, based on present ethno-demographic trends. An aging native population confronted by and burdensomely dependent upon a youthful alien population is a recipe for disorder. Since the Soviets have succeeded with their strategic deception of the West to the extent of having completely eliminated a military frontier protecting the West, we may reasonably anticipate that they and their Chinese allies will walk tactical nuclear weapons into the vicinity of all vital Western facilities, including, of course, those in Germany (to address the question specifically)."


ARE YOU FOR REAL!?

Do you REALLY believe that USSR will rise again and invade Western Europe?

Do you think that they merely FAKED their political-economical-demographical collapse at the beginning of the 1990s?

Do you think that any Russian politician with a shred of self-preservation instinct is going to let Chinese march through Siberia?

(And what makes you think that Chinese are even interested about this whole European invasion?)


News flash: Expansionist Communism is dead in Russia, for all practical purposes.

(You even refuse to use the word "Russians," you say "Soviets" instead)

I was apparently more correct than I even knew when I said that you are stuck in the Cold War times.

I think NN can officially join the club of Kooky Conspiratologists.

(and Winnie, don't you now post any Shriner pictures in here, that joke has worn out)


Petr

ARE YOU FOR REAL!?

Do you REALLY believe that USSR will rise again and invade Western Europe?
Petr


Funny thought, that under Putin there is a creeping resovietization. Old symbols, songs and names return. I guess you will just dismiss it as "Nostalgia".

- "I guess you will just dismiss it as "Nostalgia"."


D#mn right I will.

Brandt, if you want me (or any sane person) to take your political insights seriously, stay away from this kookery.


Petr

If it looks like a bolshevik, talks like a bolshevik and acts like a bolshevik....well, then it probably IS A BOLSHEVIK. And no democratic window dressing can cover it up.

And I realy dont care if you or anyone else takes me "seriously". You are hostile towards the German Nation and side with it's enemys. So why should I care about your opinion?

Perhaps some sort of "National Bolshevism" inside Russia, but new invasion of Western Europe, no, no, no, that's ridiculous.

You have apparently gotten used to associating with back-patters who agree with every word you say.


Petr

[NN:] Golitsyn explained in his latest and authoritative work, The Perestroika Deception, that the Soviets yet anticipate internal disorders in the West to eventually develop as a manifestation of the "internal contradictions" which plague "capitalist" regimes in Marxist theory. The Soviets hope then to exploit these disorders to the end of obtaining global geo-political supremacy.

We might reasonably anticipate the development of such disorders at the middle of the present century, based on present ethno-demographic trends. An aging native population confronted by and burdensomely dependent upon a youthful alien population is a recipe for disorder. Since the Soviets have succeeded with their strategic deception of the West to the extent of having completely eliminated a military frontier protecting the West, we may reasonably anticipate that they and their Chinese allies will walk tactical nuclear weapons into the vicinity of all vital Western facilities, including, of course, those in Germany (to address the question specifically).


ARE YOU FOR REAL!?

Do you REALLY believe that USSR will rise again and invade Western Europe?

Do you think that they merely FAKED their political-economical-demographical collapse at the beginning of the 1990s?

Do you think that any Russian politician with a shred of self-preservation instinct is going to let Chinese march through Siberia?

(And what makes you think that Chinese are even interested about this whole European invasion?)


News flash: Expansionist Communism is dead in Russia, for all practical purposes.

(You even refuse to use the word "Russians," you say "Soviets" instead)

I was apparently more correct than I even knew when I said that you are stuck in the Cold War times.

I think NN can officially join the club of Kooky Conspiratologists.

(and Winnie, don't you now post any Shriner pictures in here, that joke has worn out)

Petr


*Deception, by Edward Jay Epstein

*New Lies for Old, by Anatoly Golitsyn

*The Perestroika Deception, by Anatoly Golitsyn

*Spycatcher, by Peter Wright


Lacking a foundation in a reading of the above works, any commentary is uninstructed.

Brother Petr is due our thanks for his further service in thus being admonished on the point.
*

*Deception, by Edward Jay Epstein

*New Lies for Old, by Anatoly Golitsyn

*The Perestroika Deception, by Anatoly Golitsyn

*Spycatcher, by Peter Wright


....And an episode of the Simpsons.

Funny thought, that under Putin there is a creeping resovietization. Old symbols, songs and names return. I guess you will just dismiss it as "Nostalgia".

Isn't that desirable? Do you want a Russia kneeling at the jackboot of the West?

....And an episode of the Simpsons.

Yes, as one among several notable examples of pseudo-sophisticate ignorance or deliberately mendacious treatment of the issue offered by the coordinated media. There were two "documentaries" done by the PBS/Nova/Frontline element that flatly lied about Golitsyn and Angleton, in the latter category, and we are now smartly Jewed by HM with his reference to an example of the former type of production made cheaply available for those of fatuously fashionable opinions.
*

Yes, as one among several notable examples of pseudo-sophisticate ignorance or deliberately mendacious treatment of the issue offered by the coordinated media.


In a deliberate attempt at humor by showing a ridiculous, incredible situation so unlikely as to be laughable.

I repeat, so unlikely as to be laughable.

In a deliberate attempt at humor by showing a ridiculous, incredible situation so unlikely as to be laughable.

I repeat, so unlikely as to be laughable.

Sidney Reilly, Ace of Spies, evidently thought likewise until the very moment before he was taken by surprise, then tortured and shot, during the climax of an enormous and elaborate Soviet deception operation.

I see that you're the same sort of fool.

Good luck.
*

http://www.ghi-dc.org/bulletinF98/bulletin_f98.html (http://www.ghi-dc.org/bulletinF98/bulletin_f98.html)

"Fact or Fiction? The Historical Profession and James Bacque"

Roundtable discussion at the Annual Meeting of the German Studies Association, Salt Lake City, October 8-11, 1998. Sponsored by the GHI. Participants: Günter Bischof (University of New Orleans), Dewey A. Browder (Austin Peay State University), Wilfried Mausbach (GHI), Hans-Jürgen Schröder (University of Giessen), Christof Strauß (University of Heidelberg), Richard D. Wiggers (Georgetown University).

The topic of discussion for this panel centered around James Bacque's allegation, made in his recent, controversial book Crimes and Mercies, that American authorities deliberately starved to death as many as nine million German civilians after World War II.

Wilfried Mausbach (GHI) challenged Bacque's contention that the infamous Morgenthau Plan informed American actions. He demonstrated first that the notion of turning Germany into a huge "farm" was never part of American postwar planning; second, that the United States's occupation directive (JCS 1067) was not cast in Morgenthau's mold; and third, that the negative elements of JCS 1067 were deliberately postponed, and thereby in effect dismissed, by Military Government officers in the field. Instead of evaluating the available evidence, James Bacque's dramaturgy pits villains against heroes and surrenders scholarly differentiation to populism.

Günter Bischof (University of New Orleans) viewed Bacque's thesis as part of the trend toward a "paranoid style" in writing recent history. This style is characterized by five elements: the image of a huge conspiracy, a self-bestowed duty to save civilization from apocalypse, a manichean worldview of absolute good versus absolute evil, the conviction that traitors make history, and the amassing of evidence to prove a preconceived thesis. Bischof found traces of all these elements in Bacque's writing, and he bemoaned the publishing industry's zest for "conspiracy history."

Christof Strauß (University of Heidelberg) examined Bacque's thesis that approximately one million German POWs perished in American and French camps by taking a close look at two Prisoner of War Temporary Enclosures (PWTEs) in Heilbronn. Strauß found that conditions in these camps indeed did not meet the requirements of the Geneva Convention of 1929. However, to interpret this as evidence of a centrally planned and implemented policy of starvation neglects overall conditions in Germany and Europe in the wake of the war and overestimates to a considerable extent the occupation authorities' scope of action. Strauß proved that, contrary to Bacque's assertion, the Americans did allow aid to be delivered to the inmates by representatives of the German churches, and the International Red Cross also was allowed to visit the camps. Moreover, between May and December 1945 some 300,000 POWs passed through the Heilbronn PWTEs, and death lists show that only 283 of them died. This seems to indicate not only that Bacque's research was poor but also that his overall estimates of deaths are way too high.

Dewey A. Browder (Austin Peay State University) corroborated this information. He showed that Bacque manipulated statistics by adding expellees and repatriated POWs to an early 1946 census that actually already included more than 1.5 million expellees and repatriatesin addition to the unrepatriated POWs. In counting these people twice, Bacque finds that there should have been nearly 74 million people in Germany in 1950 and cries mass murder when that year's census falls short by 6 million. Professor Browder explained that he personally pointed out this mistake to Bacque while the Canadian author was revising his manuscript for publication in English. Bacque, however, failed to correct his information.

Finally, Richard D. Wiggers (Georgetown University) provided an analysis of eyewitness accounts by authors who were neither Germans nor U.S. Military Government employees. He found that these third-party observers reported and often criticized a stern allied policy toward the German people. Thus, if there was, as Bacque alleges, a conspiracy to hide the truth, it must have failed miserably. Moreover, a close, comprehensive, and unbiased reading of independent eyewitness accounts suggests that a mass death of millions of Germans by starvation did not occur in postwar Germany.

The lively discussion, moderated by Hans-Jürgen Schröder (University of Giessen), addressed James Bacque's motivation for writing fiction disguised as fact. It was pointed out that Bacque obviously really believes he has discovered something real and is encouraged by people in Germany who suffered after 1945 and who feel that their experience of victimization has gotten short shrift in the history of this period. However, his neglect of evidence suggests either that he is unable to acknowledge criticism or that he willfully ignores information in an effort to cash in on a sensationalist thesis. The latter supposition led participants to discuss the quixotic nature of efforts by professional historians to challenge populist histories promoted by a sensation-driven publishing industry. Some also wondered whether even the most ludicrous claims merit consideration. There seemed to be an overall agreement, however, that historians have a duty to correct gross distortions and refute wild allegations. Wilfried Mausbach

"In the fall of 1989 the Canadian novelist James Bacque rocked the scholarly community with the publication of his book Other Losses, charging that Dwight D. Eisenhower personally, and the United States and French armies institutionally, were responsible for the death of up to a million German prisoners of war at the end of World War II. According to Bacque, the U.S. Army circumvented the 1929 Geneva Convention by inventing the category "disarmed enemy forces" (DEFs) for German POWs. This charge allowed Eisenhower and the American army to withhold adequate food supplies and shelter from the DEFs. The result, according to Bacque, was starvation and disease in the American POW/DEF enclosures in Germany and France, causing the deaths of from 800,000 to 1 million Germans held as prisoners of war. These alleged mass deaths in Eisenhower's "death camps" were, according to Bacque, hidden in army records by way of a category listed as "other losses."

Bacque went a step farther: he charged that ever since the heinous crimes were committed, professional historians had participated in a vast American conspiracy, by failing to uncover the mass deaths. Only Bacque, through his single-minded pursuit of the available archival evidence, set the record straight after a "long night of lies." Did he? The following essays look into Bacque's charges concerning the American treatment of German POWs/DEFs at the end of World War II."

TBC

Dewey A. Browder (Austin Peay State University) corroborated this information. He showed that Bacque manipulated statistics by adding expellees and repatriated POWs to an early 1946 census that actually already included more than 1.5 million expellees and repatriatesin addition to the unrepatriated POWs.

Browder's objections have already been dealt with by mugwort. I believe that these objections predate the publication of Crimes and Mercies, where they are dealt with devastatingly, since Bacque (a humble journalist, like your reputable source Conrad Black, though Bacque hasn't been caught lying, embezzling, or covering for Jewish machinations) has compared his work to the data in the Soviet Archives, and Browder has not.

I guess checking your work is the difference between pseudoscholars like Bacque and the reputable sources you champion, Fade.

Nothing like 'historiographic' method - unless it's assigning a twenty five cent word to your own prejudices in hopes of scaring away the faint hearted.

You might want to catch up on mugwort's posts, given that you've been away for so long, following your vow to not return.

Glad to see you're as good as your word.


WM

Sidney Reilly, Ace of Spies, evidently thought likewise until the very moment before he was taken by surprise, then tortured and shot, during the climax of an enormous and elaborate Soviet deception operation.

I see that you're the same sort of fool.


No. Only a fool would believe the USSR had disbanded itself in 1925. Are you that sort of fool?


Come to think of it, was Sid Reilly under that illusion? I think not.

No. Only a fool would believe the USSR had disbanded itself in 1925. Are you that sort of fool?

Come to think of it, was Sid Reilly under that illusion? I think not.

You now betray in detail your complete ignorance of the episode and the subject in general for obviously not having read the material as instructed.

Mere fool that you now seem to be, you apparently sought initially, merely stupidly (we may then take it), to make light of it with a dismissive wisecrack - if you are not, in fact, simply a trolling propagandist as suggested, prima facie, by your pseudonym.

So which is it?
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:: Browder's objections have already been dealt with by mugwort.

I will get back to mugwort soon enough. Amongst other things, mugwort also believes Adolf Hitler was a victim of the so-called 'Warmasters' who were out to get Germany (but I have already dealt with that). Hitler never had any plan to expand east either. Its all one big lie, one big conspiracy! Lord Halifax, out to get Germany. :|

:: I believe that these objections predate the publication of Crimes and Mercies, where they are dealt with devastatingly

Did you even read the article, wintermute? :p

"The topic of discussion for this panel centered around James Bacque's allegation, made in his recent, controversial book Crimes and Mercies, that American authorities deliberately starved to death as many as nine million German civilians after World War II."

:: like your reputable source Conrad Black, though Bacque hasn't been caught lying, embezzling, or covering for Jewish machinations) has compared his work to the data in the Soviet Archives, and Browder has not

1.) James Bacque is not a historian. He is a journalist who made absurd claims which have been subject to devastating criticism about numerous real historians.
2.) As far as I know, Conrad Black is not a ZOG agent involved in any Jewish conspiracy. But if you have any real evidence of that, then lets see it. The only reason that I even used that biography was because it is a new book. I could just as easily go find dozens of other biographies of Roosevelt which come to pretty much the same conclusions.

:: I guess checking your work is the difference between pseudoscholars like Bacque and the reputable sources you champion, Fade.

James Bacque cannot even be called a pseudoscholar. That's an injustice. He is not a scholar period, but a discredited journalist commenting on matters over his head and outside his profession. That you would even bother to cite such a charlatan says a lot about your standards. That you would also assume that I am 'ignorant' (LOL!) of his work even though it has been discussed on this forum numerous times in the past is even more alarming.

:: Nothing like 'historiographic' method - unless it's assigning a twenty five cent word to your own prejudices in hopes of scaring away the faint hearted.

Speaking of one's own prejudices, it sure is interesting how wintermute dismisses the thousands of books and scholarly articles that have been written about the Holocaust in the blink of an eye whereas we do not see anything remotely like the same amount of scepticism about the work of two discredited journalists he is so eager to cite.

:: You might want to catch up on mugwort's posts, given that you've been away for so long, following your vow to not return.

Do you think I have some sort of problem replying to mugwort's posts? I think I will let the gallery be the judge of that.

:: Glad to see you're as good as your word.

Thanx.

You now betray in detail your complete ignorance of the episode and the subject in general for obviously not having read the material as instructed.

Mere fool that you now seem to be, you apparently sought initially, merely stupidly (we may then take it), to make light of it with a dismissive wisecrack - if you are not, in fact, simply a trolling propagandist as suggested, prima facie, by your pseudonym.

So which is it?
*

I propose that we dub the person who believes the USSR still exists to be the [Thou shall not flame in the highbrow section. Amen!]

Which one of us shall that be?

The theory espoused by Anatoliy Golitsyn seems interesting, but it brings out some further questions : if the political changes we have witnessed in the former Soviet Union since 1991, and even before, were just a screen of smoke to deceive gulible westerners, who are the TRUE string pullers behind all those events?

When we know that the Soviet Union from its very beginning to its very last days, have been discretly supported by some powerful financial circles of the west (most of them being :jew: ...), that the struggle for power between Stalinists and Trotskists, was just a bloody rivalry between two :jew: ish faction, as evidenced by the work of such dissident as Juri Lina, we may wonder who was really holding the reins of USSR and Russia from Stalin's death to today? For example, what insurance we may have that a guy like Putin, who seems to have a pro-european, pro-white policy, is not another puppet, even unwilling, at the hands of those international rulers? :(

Or is it so, that the Russians and Chinese (who are also following the same trend according to Gordon Thomas, in his book "Seeds of fire"), are now going to succede where Adolf Hitler had failed, by expert manipulations instead of leonine revendications? That Stalin's death (that some people don't believe to have been natural...) may have sparkled a posthumous victory for the national-socialist ideology, that may soon sweap the whole world? :confused:

I propose that we dub the person who believes the USSR still exists to be the [Thou shall not flame in the highbrow section. Amen!]

Which one of us shall that be?

Let us dub those who are aware that the USSR still "exists," in a form other than that which was exploited by the Soviets prior to Gorbachev's dismantling of its overt administrative apparatus, the cognoscenti, those who are au courant - as opposed to the ignoramuses, those who are fatuous.

Thank you for prompting me to the adoption of appropriate terminology in this regard.

Perhaps you would like to elevate yourself in these terms by educating yourself on the point.

Wow us by establishing a precedent for Trolls.
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Oh NN, master of the esoterica, tell us who's got the "real power" in current Russia?

What would be the MOTIVATION (not even talking about "means") of these secret "movers-and-shakers" of Russia to invade Western Europe?


(You know, I didn't realize how deep you were into this esoteric/exoteric horse rubbish until PaleoLeftist pointed it out to me. No wonder your ideas about the origins of Christianity were so ridiculous.)


Petr

Oh NN, master of the esoterica, tell us who's got the "real power" in current Russia?

What would be the MOTIVATION (not even talking about "means") of these secret "movers-and-shakers" of Russia to invade Western Europe?

(You know, I didn't realize how deep you were into this esoteric/exoteric horse rubbish until PaleoLeftist pointed it out to me. No wonder your ideas about the origins of Christianity were so ridiculous.)

Petr

I suggest, first, that you have your mommy pointedly smack you upside your head and demonstratively burn your comic books.

Then have the poor woman obtain for her benighted son a copy of Lothrop Stoddard's The Revolt Against Civilization for some foundation in the motivation of Marxists as crypto-anarchists.
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The Americans did not have Siberian gulags.

No they had internment camps.


And of course one could probably find more American accounts of individual soldiers in English than Russian accounts of individual soldiers. Because the Russian accounts would most likely be available overwhelmingly in Russian, because Russia had less literacy than the US, etc.

WTF are you talking about? Do you have a source to back this up?

We're talking about the 1940's, well after the massive literacy campaigns launched by the Soviet regime during the 20's and early 30's.



It was the Russians that tore apart Poland, Hungary, Czechslovakia, and Eastern Germany as they advanced towards Berlin.

So did the Western allies. They bombed everything in site, in fact they bombed Berlin so many it seemed they were trying to "make the rubble bounce".



The Russians, not Americans, were the ones famous for, say, raping German women, or even women of the Western countries of Eastern Europe.

It's already being released how Western Allied soldiers raped and pillaged as they marched towards the Eble. So give me this high horse nonsense!


Again, the Russians treated their own civilians and soldiers so badly, I really find it hard to believe that they would have treated German civilians and soldiers at even the same level. They were known for ****ing MARCHING THEIR MEN INTO THEIR OWN ARTILLERY for crying out loud. You can usually tell how the enemy will be treated by an army by looking at how it treats its own people.

Yeah and American planners had no concern for their own men when they organized bombing flights on the battlefield. Theres a famous incident in Normandy where American bombers killed their own troops.

And besides those were penal battalions you're largely talking about.

And of course one could probably find more American accounts of individual soldiers in English than Russian accounts of individual soldiers. Because the Russian accounts would most likely be available overwhelmingly in Russian, because Russia had less literacy than the US, etc.
Unlike the Allies, who hid the magnitude of their crimes against their prisoners by not keeping/destroying records that would reveal it, the Soviet Union's NKVD camps (whose treatment of former POWs after the war included sufficient rations) kept detailed records on each prisoner, available now in the Central State Special Archive.

- “I suggest, first, that you have your mommy pointedly smack you upside your head and demonstratively burn your comic books.”

Has anyone ever told you that you are painfully unfunny person, especially when trying to be funny?

:D


- “ Then have the poor woman obtain for her benighted son a copy of Lothrop Stoddard's The Revolt Against Civilization for some foundation in the motivation of Marxists as crypto-anarchists. “


Ooh, a book from 1922. You just keep proving how stuck in the past you are.

Do you think Putin is a Marxist?


Petr

Putin is an ex-KGB agent, so it wouldnt suprise me that he took down much of that Marxist indoctrination.

- "Putin is an ex-KGB agent, so it wouldnt suprise me that he took down much of that Marxist indoctrination."


Hordes of people with some Marxist education are nowadays running very lucrative capitalist enterprises in the former Communist block. Doesn't mean a thing in itself.

Heck, the phase of internationalist socialism and glorification of anarchism in Russia actually ended already when Stalin overthrew Trotsky and his ideas of global, continuous revolution.

The main proponents of that idea are nowadays Russia-hating American neocons.


Petr

Hordes of people with some Marxist education are nowadays running very lucrative capitalist enterprises in the former Communist block. Doesn't mean a thing in itself.

As if theres that much of a difference between communism and capitalism. As Belloc explains this to much length in the Servile State.


Heck, the phase of internationalist socialism and glorification of anarchism in Russia actually ended already when Stalin overthrew Trotsky and his ideas of global, continuous revolution.

Actuallyt internationalism didnt die with Trotsky, it still lived on with the Stalinists. What differed were the definitions of internationalism. Trotskyist internationalism is a total disregard of national identities while Stalinist internationalism states that "inter" means between, so internationalism without nations is pointless. The Juche ideologists have furthered elaborated on this principle. But the concept of world revolution is the same for trotskyists and stalinists.

Please Perun, don't tell me that are bying into this "USSR is going to rise again and invade West" nonsense that NN is peddling?


Petr

Please Perun, don't tell me that are bying into this "USSR is going to rise again and invade West" nonsense that NN is peddling?


Petr

Putin has renamed "Wolgograd" to "Stalingrad"
Putin has reinstated old soviet Symbols (red Star)
Putin has reinstated the old soviet anthem
Under Putin they have errected a new monummetn for the first Tsheka chief Dzershinsky.

Now imagine this:
In Germany they rename squares after Adolf Hitler, reinstate the old Swastica Flag and Reichseagle as State Symbol, introduce the Horst-Wessel Lied as Anthem, and build a monumment for Heinrich Himmler or Reinhard Heydrich? And then someone like you would come along and say "What gives you the Idea that they are Nazis?" :rolleyes:


It is obvious to me, that you are some sick krypto-bolshevik.

- "It is obvious to me, that you are some sick krypto Bolshevik."


It is quite obvious to me that the range of your thought is rather limited.


Petr

Please Perun, don't tell me that are bying into this "USSR is going to rise again and invade West" nonsense that NN is peddling?


Petr

Putin once admitted his hero was Jospeh Stalin.

I am NOT ruling out some "nationalist bolshevik" option, (or even considering it the worst possible option, compared to some decadent weimaresque anarcho-capitalism) but I think you should admit that Russia will have its hands full just trying to stop neocon imperialists from destroying what's left of her power.


Petr

Dr Brandt said;


Funny thought, that under Putin there is a creeping resovietization. Old symbols, songs and names return. I guess you will just dismiss it as "Nostalgia".

Petr said;

D#mn right I will.

Brandt, if you want me (or any sane person) to take your political insights seriously, stay away from this kookery.

but then later, Petr says;

I am NOT ruling out some "nationalist bolshevik" option

Looks like you are backpeddling fast! :D

Look, I think (I hope!) that Putin is after some kind of NATIONAL socialism.

But the idea of him being interested in spreading the "gospel" of Marxism abroad or invading Western Europe is ridiculous.

Almost anything is better than that decadent weimaresque anarcho-capitalism that reigned there in the 1990's, allowing Jewish oligarchs to steal unspeakable fortunes and plunging huge numbers of Russians to misery.

(Perhaps the most disgusting side-product of this is that sex-slavery phenomenon)


Petr

Let us dub those who are aware that the USSR still "exists," in a form other than that which was exploited by the Soviets prior to Gorbachev's dismantling of its overt administrative apparatus, the cognoscenti,


I suppose I'll have to ask you again, since there seems to be some odd moderation in this section which prevents any new person from questioning another's premise.

Who came up with the plan to 'hide' the USSR (Certainly you don't believe it was Gorbachev), why did the oligarchs who lost power in its demise go along with it, and what apparatus is to oversee its return?

Look, I think (I hope!) that Putin is after some kind of NATIONAL socialism.

So you now hope Putin follows the teachings of Mein Kampf? :p

This is getting ridiculious

Look Perun, Russia, far from being any "threat" to Europe is right now perhaps the best reservoir where Whites can maintain some self-sovereignty!

The idea that European Whites should now arm themselves against the Russian threat, instead of seeking brotherhood with them, is so stupid and anachronistic that it makes my head hurt.


Petr

I suppose I'll have to ask you again, since there seems to be some odd moderation in this section which prevents any new person from questioning another's premise.

Who came up with the plan to 'hide' the USSR (Certainly you don't believe it was Gorbachev), why did the oligarchs who lost power in its demise go along with it, and what apparatus is to oversee its return?

1) Shelepin, 1959.

2) The "Oligarchs" were agents of the state rather than principals, employed as a distraction and for the discrediting of "capitalism". This element had no say in the matter planned long before they were "hired" and were easily dismissed, arrested, or chased into exile.

3)The KGB is the power behind the scenes, and presumably is responsible for the execution of all significant operations.
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- "1) Shelepin, 1959."

Ooh, more fresh sources. They sure planned this good, 40 years ahead!



- "2) The "Oligarchs" were agents of the state rather than principals, employed as a distraction and for the discrediting of "capitalism".


Well if that's what they're here for, they've done their job pretty darn well, that discrediting part I mean.

Will you dare to name any of these sinister grey eminences, preparing the new rise of the USSR, or are you afraid that they will send some KGB-team to whack you?


Petr

Look Perun, Russia, far from being any "threat" to Europe

Uhh....where did I say it was? Or where did anybody say that?


The idea that European Whites should now arm themselves against the Russian threat, instead of seeking brotherhood with them, is so stupid and anachronistic that it makes my head hurt.

Petr, where did anybody say that? Why are you attacking strawmen?

Apparently being concerned about Putin's attempts at restoring Bolshevism(whatever its supposed "nationalist" elements are) automatically means Europe must be armed against the Russian bear. Oh well, it'd just be a contuation of the Stalin-Trotsky rivalry; the West lead by Trotskyism and Russian once again lead by Stalinism. :rolleyes:

1) Shelepin, 1959.


I addressed this part in another thread. I thought I had asked you somewhere else and it had been deleted. My apologies.


2) The "Oligarchs" were agents of the state rather than principals, employed as a distraction and for the discrediting of "capitalism".


I'm not referring to defects in Russian capitalism. I'm referring to the actual Politburo and upper party members who lost their total control over the nation.

Are you suggesting that these people had a 'long range view' and were willing to sacrifice rank and status for this conspiracy? The Soviets sure have come a long way from the 1940s, if thats true.


This element had no say in the matter planned long before they were "hired" and were easily dismissed, arrested, or chased into exile.


Who does have a say in the matter? Who decided this? Who put it into action?

See "Mugwort" thread.

Read the books.
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