...............

Interessantes Interview.Gibts das auch irgendwo auf deutsch zu finden?

Q: What role do Jews play in the Soviet Union?

A: I can tell you that the Soviet leadership under Lenin was paid for by the Jews, who spent 220 million dollars. At that time, [German General] Ludendorff also gave Lenin money in order to end the war, and that was understandable.

Among the Soviet leaders at that time, 97 percent were Jews. And then Stalin came to power, and politicians who pursued a [non-ideological] policy in the interests of Russia, including the "great patriotic war" [that is, the Second World War], which he won.

Stalin not only had millions killed who were on the periphery of power, such as peasants, but he also had 1.6 million of Lenin's followers, including Trotsky, systematically shot as well. And as a result, Russia today is regarded as the only country that is anti-Jewish or free of Zionist influence. We Germans ought to be glad for the rivalry between Washington and Moscow. We have to take advantage of these differences.

Q: What sort of Jewish influence was there in the U.S.S.R. during the Second World War?

A: After the war, many Jews were deported to the Ural area, and the Polish Jews fled. The Russians needed soldiers, and some of the Jews were used as partisans. And the Russians saw that the people didn't want them. They weren't happy with them, and they deported them. During the war we estimated that there were perhaps 1.8 million, or perhaps 2 million, I don't know for sure, Jews in the Soviet Union. There weren't that many.

Q: And Jewish influence in the Soviet Union today?

A: There are certainly [still] a few, but their influence has decreased drastically. In the Supreme Soviet today less than four percent are Jews, as opposed to 97 per cent [in Lenin's time]. So you can see how things have changed.



So then Goebbels and Hitler, speaking about the Jewish nature of Soviet Bolshevism, were lying?

Why did the interview disappear? Aren't we supposed to talk about Otto Remer's love for the USSR? :p

This post was posted for information as well , which was why it was deleted.
Does that mean that the term " Jewish Bolshevism" is to be binned as well ?
its an often quoted reason for the Holocaust , the jews were responsible for the birth of Communism and as such had to be eliminated.

Just why did you delete your post Dr. Brandt ?
have you been plotting against General Remer ? :rolleyes:
( "Watch that brief case for me General Remer , I'll be back in a minute" :p )

its an often quoted reason for the Holocaust , the jews were responsible for the birth of Communism and as such had to be eliminated

There was no "holocaust", it is a fraud through and through. The Jews were to be expelled from Europe.

Assisted by the gentlemen whom Goldenhagen described as " Hitlers Willing Executioners ".
"Resettlement" , "Explusion" "Transportation to the east" "Final Solution",
words can be used to desribe many things and disguise many facts.
Attached reinhold some people being "Expelled from Europe" , in whatever sense of the word may sit easy with your interpetation of the word " Expelled".
I could say they are being "Expelled" from life , did I say they were being killed or did I ever infer being "expelled" meant death , no only "Expelled".
Whats in a word ?
No doubt this photograph is a fake and the person who splashed Himmler with his brains was only being "expelled" or " resettled" , perhaps it was like that memorable scene from "Pulp Fiction" when marvin got shot ?
Mass murder without a gas chamber in sight.
Does method really matter as long as the goal is achieved, still what's in a word ?

Does method really matter as long as the goal is achieved, still whats in a word ?

I see you are abandoning the gas chambers as well, very wise.

Assisted by the gentlemen whom Goldenhagen described as " Hitlers Willing Executioners ".

Are you not embarassed to invoke Goldhagen? Even the holocosters can't stand him and find his thesis offensive, or at least, highly embarassing - see the afterword to the paperback edition of Browing's 'Ordinary Men.'

Now to your photo. You have the cheek to rubbish John Ball and then come along and foist pictures on us and tell us what we are supposed to be looking at!

Tell me exactly what you see in that photo. What you see and not what you have been told to see.

Who are these people? The naked ones, the uniformed ones, and the civilians?

What is happening here? What do you see? What in that photo leads you to describe this as execution of Jews?

Mass murder without a gas chamber in sight.

Mass murder; where? Are you sure, I can't see it. I can see how it might be inferred but I dont actually see it.

So start again, what do you actually see? That's a serious question, btw.

-----
A bit of light relief whilst on the subject of photos and captions, what do you think is going on here?

http://www.holocaustchronicle.org/HolocaustScans/HiRes/1942/19420008000218

The people in the photograph have just turned up for swimming lessons to find the pool has not been completed , but they are lucky...at the new camp called Auschwitz there is a new swimming pool which the inmates can use.
They never had it so good. :rolleyes:

PS You tell me , a throwing the middle aged lady contest perhaps ?

The people in the photograph have just turned up for swimming lessons to find the pool has not been completed , but they are lucky...at the new camp called Auschwitz there is a new swimming pool which the inmates can use.
They never had it so good. :D

Seriously though, that answer is actually no different from the previous narrative - both project things into the pictures that are not there.

PS You tell me , a throwing the middle aged lady contest perhaps ?

Probably! LOL!

But the Holocaust Chronicle would like you to believe that you are looking at the following;

"Here, a Pole in the town of Swierze literally carries a Jewish woman to the Gestapo."

http://www.holocaustchronicle.org/StaticPages/330.html

They are telling you what to see in this picture.

This the point; you have to look at the photo and see what is there, not what some captioner is telling you to see.

I grant you its an odd photograph , would be interesting to see more of the background.

The photo is not odd - its two women having fun or something. Its the caption. Holohoax history books are full of this kind of lying captioning. In this one they have exceeded even themselves in chutzpah.

would be interesting to see more of the background.

Ah, you are starting to talk like a revisionist! Be careful, if you start questioning their holy writ, they will call you a "denier."

" One swallow does not a summer make".

" One swallow does not a summer make".

Its easy when you try - all you have to do is say to yourself "I will not accept anything unless it conforms to the normal canons of evidence and is in conformity with the rules of logic." Once you do that, the whole holocost story crumbles into dust.

There was no "holocaust"


Try harder.

May it please the court, I stand up for all of my actions. I did participate in executions upon the orders of my superior officers, and those executions were under the supervision of SS officers and doctors. For that reason, I never doubted the legality of the sentences being carried out. Just like any American soldier, I carried out the orders of my superior officers. As soldiers of the American army you have probably recieved orders to which you objected but were forced to carry out. I was a soldier for twenty-five years and knew nothing except my country and my orders.

--SS Sgt. Hermann Helbig

"Justice at Dachau"
Joshua M. Greene, Page 312

I see you are abandoning the gas chambers as well, very wise.


No reason he should, since they were in fact, quite real.

"I, Dr. Hans Munch hereby attest that, as an SS physician on duty in Auschwitz in 1944, I witnessed the selection process of those who were to live and those who were to die. Other SS physicians on duty in the camps made selections at the platform where the transports arrived. They also made selections in the barracks. I was exempt from performing selections because I had refused to do so.

I further attest that I saw thousands of people gassed here at Auschwitz. Children, old people, the sick and those unable to work were sent to the gas chambers. These were innocent human beings: Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, Hitler's political opponents - anyone who did not fit Hitler's idea of a pure Aryan race.

I am signing this paper of my own free will to help document the cruel intolerance of my fellow SS.

I, a former SS physician, witnessed the dropping of Zyklon B into simulated exhaust vents from outside the gas chamber. Zyklon B began to work as soon as it was released from the canisters. The effects of the gas were observed through a peephole by an assigned doctor or the SS officer on duty. After three to five minutes, death could be certified, and the doors were opened as a sign that the corpses were cleared to be burned.

This is the nightmare I continue to live with fifty years later. . I am so sorry that in some way I was part of it. Under the prevailing circumstances I did the best I could to save as many lives as possible. Joining the SS was a mistake. I was young. I was an opportunist. And once I joined, there was no way out."

Try harder.

I rather think you are the one who is going to have to try harder, much harder.

Your confessions aren't worth a toss.

Munch clearly has no idea what he is supposedly confessing to;

Q. Mr. Witness, you already mentioned that it was an irrefutable fact
that mass exterminations were carried out in Auschwitz. Is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you describe briefly where this extermination was carried
out, particularly the locality?
A. The extermination plant was located at Birkenau. The crematoria and
gas chambers were located one to one and a half kilometers southwest
of the Birkenau camp, camouflaged in a small woods.

Very odd because the so-called gas chambers + Kremas were located IN Birkenau.

Also if you knew anything about the release rate of Zyklon B you would not have posted that.

Try harder.

May it please the court, I stand up for all of my actions. I did participate in executions upon the orders of my superior officers, and those executions were under the supervision of SS officers and doctors. For that reason, I never doubted the legality of the sentences being carried out. Just like any American soldier, I carried out the orders of my superior officers. As soldiers of the American army you have probably recieved orders to which you objected but were forced to carry out. I was a soldier for twenty-five years and knew nothing except my country and my orders.

--SS Sgt. Hermann Helbig

"Justice at Dachau"
Joshua M. Greene, Page 312

Ditto for this.

Did you know that people confessed to having slept with the devil in the middle ages?

Reinhold when I read your last post I just had to laugh , there was nothing else to do.
Gas chambers , gas trucks , mass shootings , genocide , daft racist laws , propaganda which could just as well come from the middle ages , sterotyped images of Jews & other races , the image of a master race , the destruction of a legal system , the compromising of the medical services , forced euthanesia , murder by State Policy , I don't deny any of this Reinhold.

I won't argue it with you as there is no point , I learnt a long time ago that it is impossible to reason with a deluded person as they create their own reality and sustain it in the face of reasonable arguement .

Go on be deluded its your call , I really don't mind.
The consistant flaw which runs through out is that your view cannot be wrong in anything related to NSDAP policy or the direction of the war , never , nothing can at any point upset your applecart of what Hitler was and the nature of his leadership within German or the lands occupied.
That I find truely disturbing , it does verge on the psychotic.
Honestly its truely amazing.

Reinhold when I read your last post I just had to laugh

You laugh at yourself so. Do you believe Munch? In his statement he clearly shows that he DOES NOT KNOW where the alleged gas chambers and Kremas are, now if you want to believe him then you are the one who is deluded. Simply look at a map of Birkenau. Clearly he does not knownanything about Zyklon B either because it does not release immediately (its starts to release) killing everyone exposed in under five minutes: THIS IS NOT PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE. Under optimum conditions Zyklon B releases in c. 1 hour.

I won't argue it with you as there is no point

Clearly you cannot because you have not the first idea about any of this.

That I find truely disturbing , it does verge on the psychotic

What I find disturbing - but not unusual sadly - is someone who absolutely refuses to confront the evidence for and against the existence of gas chambers and draw his own conclusions. Anyone who has done this is subject to your derision. But that derision only reflects badly on you.

Reinhold,
I looked at that awful site "Nikzor" ( Yes , I know it was bad of me and I am sorry) but it does produce something of a problem.
The problem is either you are wrong and they are right or its the other way round.
Now the problem I have is this if they are wrong then this whole thing would have been dismissed by now and in various court rooms in which questions have been asked of " Experts" , even a lay man like Letucher or even you might have been able to defeat this " Holohoax".
That didn't happen , did it ?
Sorry but what they have tells a very different tale from what you do and its supported by the accounts given.
Tell me about the "little red" and "little white" houses ?
Is it true that the "little red" house was hidden by trees and it was later demolished when alternative killing methods were developed , ones which took the victims directly into the camp complex ?

"Try harder" Reinhold.

Reinhold,
I looked at that awful site "Nikzor" ( Yes , I know it was bad of me and I am sorry) but it does produce something of a problem.
The problem is either you are wrong and they are right or its the other way round.
Now the problem I have is this if they are wrong then this whole thing would have been dismissed by now and in various court rooms in which questions have been asked of " Experts" , even a lay man like Letucher or even you might have been able to defeat this " Holohoax".
That didn't happen , did it ?
Sorry but what they have tells a very different tale from what you do and its supported by the accounts given.
Tell me about the "little red" and "little white" houses ?
Is it true that the "little red" house was hidden by trees and it was later demolished when alternative killing methods were developed , ones which took the victims directly into the camp complex ?

"Try harder" Reinhold.


Oh yes, Nizkor. :jew:

Now the problem I have is this if they are wrong then this whole thing would have been dismissed by now and in various court rooms in which questions

We have already gone through that last week. Do you have short term memory deficiency syndrome or what? Remember Fabius-Gayssot and all that. . . ?

Seeing as you want to be smart - you tell me about the Red House - was there a crematorium alleged to be there for that is what Munch claims - if indeed he is making claims about the Red House? If so, where is the evidence for its existence?

Tell me then how Zyklon B can disperse to lethal effect in less than 5 minutes -this is truly extraordinary and defies the laws of physics - oh yes, I forgot; Oi vey! Its a miracle!

Then when you have done that we can examine the rest of Dr Munch's extraordinary tales from the holocost where he makes some more astounding claims.

Reinhold,
You are the man who would lay claim to the holocaust being something you have knowledge of , you tell me the " ignorant troll ".

When you mention IHR of FFP should I append a small swastika perhaps ?

Are you trying to tell me that Nizkor is a piece of Jewish propaganda ?
And I fell for it , what else could you expect from an " ignorant troll".
Was this house located in Kaytn Wood perhaps , go on help a troll out :rolleyes:

I rather think you are the one who is going to have to try harder, much harder.


No, you're pretty amateurish at this. I've dealt with better, as some of the older members will attest to. :p


Your confessions aren't worth a toss.


Holocaust Denier error #1.....dont' make assumptions.

For the record, ladies and gentlemen, Munch isn't making a 'confession' in the dock at a war crimes trial.

This is a signed affadavit in 1995.

Ouch, thats got to sting.

Ditto for this.


LOL No rebuttal, confession is accepted as fact.


Did you know that people confessed to having slept with the devil in the middle ages?

Reinhold Elstner's position is this:

"Some people were coerced into confessing they molested a child. Therefore, everyone incarcerated for molesting a child was coerced into confessing. Even if they didn't confess. Even if there is no proof they were coerced."

LMAO ....."Kali-mah will rule the world".....

No, you're pretty amateurish at this. I've dealt with better, as some of the older members will attest to. :p



Holocaust Denier error #1.....dont' make assumptions.

For the record, ladies and gentlemen, Munch isn't making a 'confession' in the dock at a war crimes trial.

This is a signed affadavit in 1995.

Ouch, thats got to sting.


When you lie you have to keep it up to the end; that is what he said in his trial in Poland and had to keep saying for the rest of his life. Btw when he made that statement he was adjuged to be mentally unbalanced. Do you have any idea why he did not swing in Poland?

Would you like to address yourself to his Nuremberg testimony that I posted and that you have ignored?


Also, would you like to discuss his claims about Zyklon B that contravene the laws of physics?

LOL No rebuttal, confession is accepted as fact.



Reinhold Elstner's position is this:

"Some people were coerced into confessing they molested a child. Therefore, everyone incarcerated for molesting a child was coerced into confessing. Even if they didn't confess. Even if there is no proof they were coerced."

LMAO ....."Kali-mah will rule the world".....

Confessions are not accepted as fact except by those who would like to to do so. Would you like to accept Gerstein's testimony as fact?

Now, would you care to post the context of that statement - what executions is he talking about - executions of criminals, executions of partisans? What?

Reinhold, You are the man who would lay claim to the holocaust being something you have knowledge of , you tell me the " ignorant troll ".

No, you see you are the one who brought it up, you tell me.

When you mention IHR of FFP should I append a small swastika perhaps ?


No, becasue there is no basis in which to do so, unless of course you find evidence that they are Nazis - there is a basis for putting :jew: next to Nizkor - they are a Jewish funded operation.

Are you trying to tell me that Nizkor is a piece of Jewish propaganda ?

Oh my goodness, shock! Horror!

And I fell for it , what else could you expect from an " ignorant troll".
Was this house located in Kaytn Wood perhaps , go on help a troll out :rolleyes

You mentioned it, you deal with it. Whilst you ponder that, perhaps you could work out how the people involved in that particualr "gassing" managed to stay alive if it was done as alleged?

Reinhold,
I don't feel I have to prove anything . This is so well evidenced and it is an accepted historical fact , I have no issue with it.
I don't see that I have any reasonable case to prove , if you want to disagree please go ahead you don't have to attempt to lead me by the nose to prove your case.
Feed your own delusions don't ask me to do so , for me this is not unethical. ;)

I don't feel I have to prove anything .

Yes you do. If you make a claim you have to back it up. In response to the point about Munch's testimony you mention the red and white houses. But don't you realise how hopeless that is? Munch locates his mysterious gas/chamber crematoria 1.5 km SOUTH WEST of Birkenau. Now where are those two houses - Bunker I and II located?

You see, Munch is not talking about your red and white houses.

This is so well evidenced and it is an accepted historical fact , I have no issue with it.

What is accepted as "historical fact?" We were talking about Munch: what in his statement is accepted as historical fact and why?

I don't see that I have any reasonable case to prove , if you want to disagree please go ahead you don't have to attempt to lead me by the nose to prove your case.

You never respond to anything, you never say, "well yes, that is a problem, perhapos we have to be more critical". You show no respect for evidence or logic. If a witness testifies to impossibilities and demonstrable falsehoods then that witness is no use. I find your whole attitude deeply dishonest and frivolous.

If someone claimed to have slept with the devil would you believe them?

Feed your own delusions don't ask me to do so , for me this is not unethical. ;)

It is unethical to post something and then run from it.

Reinhold,
The historical fact I was erferring to was what is referred to as the holocaust , the victims being Jews and non-Jews.
The two "houses" mentioned , did they or did they not accomadate the killing of people.
Do you say no killing by gassing took place at all ?
Do you say this did not happen at all , no gassing , no killings , no final solution by way of what is now described as an act genocide.
I say to you again.
Stop playing around and get your proof out into the open , go on go ahead.
That's right this whole paranoid victim plot involving Jews , Allied Powers , Money Making, Russians , and God knows who or what else , get your proof out to the worlds media , it will make you for life and you can at last vindicate the wronged .
If its so obvious go ahead.
Thats right ,the "get out of jail free card" , well Reinhold , let's have your reason not to ......again , please .

For my part plain and simple it happened , Hitler Knew , people were gassed , get over it.

Now to allow you your opportunity to pour scorn .
By my own admission , freely given and no Allied Power standing over me with rubber kosh and loaded gun.
The Holocaust is not my major interest in WW2 , I don't read it day and night I just don't have that specific interest in it.
What I have seen by way of what you describe as "estiblishment historians" is enough to convince me that it did occur.

This identity given to historians like Evans , Overy , Kershaw the "estiblishment" and the title " revisionist" , I am not taken by them.
They are all historians , some are better than others , some have truth and objectivity instilled into them by way of their profession , some do not.
The "evidence " they produce for examination and the standard to which is examined is dependent on the individual , again what motivates an individual is a matter for the individual concerned.
This term " estiblishment historian" does imply that they serve an " estiblishment" rather than history and that this " estiblishment" has some vested interest in subverting the truth.
Now on this point Reinhold , do I read things correctly , yes or no , that's all that is needed.

From the point of the "revisionist" is historical fact the motivating factor ?
If this is true why have the "facts" argued not been sustained ?

Now to date in various public setting these different views of what is history have been put forward and examined , the evidence has been looked at and some has been found to have been based on fact and some has been found to be less reliable and more vunerable to critical and expert questioning.
The results stand , I have no problem with them.
If in the light of new factual evidence , which has been tested and can be accepted by professional historians of name and reputation , (experts rather than individuals with vague and doubtful "qualifications",my views may change.
Until then I refer you a man who says I know this is all a falsehood to get his " your" stall out and go for it.
Kill this Hoax once and for all , it is as you say easy ?
Is it not ?
In reply Reinhold , cut to the chase , straightforward why can't this be done.
Again :rolleyes:

PS
Fade you need a new moderator in this section.
Why not "Sulla" , I only "met him" briefly on the previous phora but is there one better ?
This thread has got zilch to do with Otto Remer.

The historical fact I was erferring to was what is referred to as the holocaust , the victims being Jews and non-Jews.

No, no. We were talking about a specific claim made by Munch. This is what the holocost is made out of; numerous individual items of evidence; you mentioned Bunker I and II (red and white houses) in support of Munch. This is hopeless because Munch CANNOT be referring to them simply because what he describes did not exist, i.e. gassing/cremating facilities 1.5 km OUTSIDE of Birkenau to the South West. Bunkers I and II were NOT 1.5 km SW of Birkenau.

All that has happened here is that Munch is shown to be an unreliable witness. The next question would of course be why? Was he pressurised into making such a statement? If so, did he deliberately falsify his testimony as a sign to anyone who examines the matter? Or did he falsify his evdience in order to cooperate with the Poles and save his own neck?

Any honest historian would apporach Munch in this way. What we get from the holocaust peddlers is a very selective use of Munch (he is hardly used at all nowadays because of his obviously false testimony); they suppress the things in his statements which contradict the legend. This can be easily established by going through their indexes and comparing how they use Munch, with the full text of his statements.

You want to evade the obvious consequences of this by going back to making big speches about "The Holocaust." That is pathetic.

The two "houses" mentioned , did they or did they not accomadate the killing of people.

There is practically no evidence except the testimony of Kremer. One of these buildings does exist and is presently the family home of a local farmer!

Do you say no killing by gassing took place at all ?

That is what I say because the evidence for there being gassings does not stand up under scrutiny.

I propose looking at those individual pieces of evidence (to anyone that is interested) - the very same evidence that your beloved establishment historians use and seeing whether it stands up. That is all revisionism consists of, nothing more and nothing less, there is no mystery to it. In this you must use a range of skills - not just historiographical but chemical, forensic, archaeological and technical (engineering). It so happens that the historiographical is my interest (because that is what I was trained in) and that is why I like to study the documents etc. But as soon as we get down to exmining a piece of evidence you take flight in a cloud of cheap insult.

Do you say this did not happen at all , no gassing , no killings , no final solution by way of what is now described as an act genocide.

How many times do I have to repeat it? I have said all along - and will continue to say - that the evidence for gas chambers - mobile and static - does not stand up. This can be shown simply by producing the evidence and examining it critically. I have also said to you before that the Final Solution of the Jewish Question is as the documents (Wannsee etc) states it to be: the expulsion of the Jews from Europe. As such it was never fully implemented because of the war.

Stop playing around

You stop playing around, ducking and diving, then running under the cover of insult.

and get your proof out into the open , go on go ahead.

You've got it the wrong way round - those who ASSERT the existence of gas chambers etc have the burden of proof. When someone is accused of murder, the prosecution has to PROVE that a.) a crime took place, and b.) the accused is responsible.

For my part plain and simple it happened , Hitler Knew , people were gassed , get over it.

If you wish to believe in it, fine. You are also welcome to believe in witches and the tooth fairy, but don't come and tell me that these things are facts without an ounce of proof and then make out I am a nazi or a nut because I refuse to believe in it.

The Holocaust is not my major interest in WW2 , I don't read it day and night I just don't have that specific interest in it.

Leave it alone so. No one is forcing you to make assertions about it.

What I have seen by way of what you describe as "estiblishment historians" is enough to convince me that it did occur.

O.k, so you are admitting that your beliefs are informed by others, not on the basis of an inquiry into the facts themselves. Then say so clearly.

This identity given to historians like Evans , Overy , Kershaw the "estiblishment" and the title " revisionist" , I am not taken by them.
They are all historians , some are better than others , some have truth and objectivity instilled into them by way of their profession , some do not.

Its the "do not" part which is interesting. You should be aware by now as to what happens to a professional historian who challenges the story; the ones who did have lost their jobs and have been hounded since.

The "evidence " they produce for examination and the standard to which is examined is dependent on the individual , again what motivates an individual is a matter for the individual concerned.

Wrong. The standards are not based on personal whims. Historiography is guided by rigorous methodology, a rigour that is strangely absent in "holocaust studies."

This term " estiblishment historian" does imply that they serve an " estiblishment" rather than history and that this " estiblishment" has some vested interest in subverting the truth.

That is precisely why I call them establishment historians.

From the point of the "revisionist" is historical fact the motivating factor ?
If this is true why have the "facts" argued not been sustained ?

The "facts" are sustained by all sort of subtely and not so subtely enforced taboos and criminal proceedings if the taboos fail - Fabius-Gayssot again.

In reply Reinhold , cut to the chase , straightforward why can't this be done.
Again :rolleyes:

You can roll your eyes around all you like. I have told you on numerous ocassions. Do you have memory lapses?

PS
Fade you need a new moderator in this section.
Why not "Sulla" , I only "met him" briefly on the previous phora but is there one better ?
This thread has got zilch to do with Otto Remer.

I see, you want this discussion censored? Fabius-Gayssot . . .

Reinhold , I have no issue with history as it stands.
I will unfortunately have to agree wit the worlds "estiblishment historians" and conspire with them to protect this lie.
If you have you do the proving.
The reason why this can't be done , big brother will hound the poor so and so to hell and back. Aye , let on.....

Bottom line is the estiblishment has been telling lies for years and will continue to do so. :rolleyes:
Fine. I leave the truth to brave men like you in the knowledge that it will be safe and that Adolf Hitler never was responsible for a single memeber of the human race, Jewish or non Jewish. :rolleyes:
Until then fini.
Amen.

Reinhold , I have no issue with history as it stands.
You know, there is no such thing as "history as it stands" - history is constantly being revised.
I will unfortunately have to agree wit the worlds "estiblishment historians" and conspire with them to protect this lie.
Well, that is a matter for your conscience.
If you have you do the proving.
It is downright dishonest and even cowardly to continue to believe in something when you have seen evidence that contradicts or at the very least upsets a belief. That is why I ceased to believe in the holocaust.
The reason why this can't be done , big brother will hound the poor so and so to hell and back. Aye , let on.....
Consider this. The post war world order appeals for its legitimacy to its victory over "evil nazism" - it saved the world from evil and is founded on the post-war settlement - the UN and the international order grows out of it. This is the belief that you are committed to. Now, as a thought experiment, grant for a moment that the holocaust is in fact standard war atrocity propaganda that crystallised into fact in order to justify the allied war effort.
Pursue this thought through to its consequences and you should be able to see why the official story must be maintained.
Bottom line is the estiblishment has been telling lies for years and will continue to do so. :rolleyes:
Is this sarcasm or do you really mean it?
Fine. I leave the truth to brave men like you in the knowledge that it will be safe and that Adolf Hitler never was responsible for a single memeber of the human race, Jewish or non Jewish. :rolleyes:
Aren't you a bit long in the tooth for such childish displays?

Every word Reinhold , except the bit about lies and Hitler being a generally good guy who was kind to animals and small children. ;)

I am sorry but the grand conspriacy bit does take me to the fair it really does.
Hans Christian Anderson or the "X" files ?

Every word Reinhold , except the bit about lies and Hitler being a generally good guy who was kind to animals and small children. ;)

I am sorry but the grand conspriacy bit does take me to the fair it really does.
Hans Christian Anderson or the "X" files ?


Neither. It doesn't work like that. You know the American saying, 'you can't get the toothpaste back in the tube?' Its a bit like that.

Once the suggestion goes out that the evil nazis were operating death camps, its hard to stop such a story, particularly when various forces have an interest in fostering its spread. At a certain point, bo amount of refutation or retraction will stop people from believing such rubbish - even educated people who you would think should know better. When powerful forces directly profit in power, ideologically, morally and even financially from such stories it is well nigh impossible and rather dangerous to stop such stories. In the middle ages when people believed in witchcraft, people swore blind that they saw things which are impossible, people confessed to having had congress with the devil - knowing that this would lead to their deaths for denying it would also lead to their deaths. Witchcraft was criminalised and witches put to death. ONe of the reasons it took so long to kill off this barbaric belief, was becasue anyone who challeneged it would themselves be accused of being witches (Nazis) and they i turn would be put to death (Fabius-Gayssot etc).

Here are some other examples of this kind of thing.

Remember the incubator story in Kuwait? During the first gulf war, it was claimed that the evil Saddam was having babies thrown out of incubators in Kuwait so that they could take these machines back to Iraq. Remember the story was thenformally retracted later on? Well, I still meet people who believe it even when you show them the retraction.

Similarly with the gassing of the Kurds. We were all told that Saddam gassed the Kurds - but a few months ago the director of the CIA said no, it was the Iranians and then it was an accident or somesuch. That the Iraqis did not have the kind of chemical agents used in that attack. I'm quite sure people will till their dying day go on about the evil Saddam who gassed the Kurds. The thing is, that now it is safe to tell the truth about this because it did the trick - it helped demonise Saddam and smooth the path to war.

But then maybe it wasn't the Iranians either. Maybe they were not gassed at all. Why do I say that? Because Iran is the next enemy so they need to be demonised. Don't be surprised if it turns out that the Kurdish gassing stories are false, at this stage who knows?

What about lampshades and soap? I know lost of people who still believe those stories, even thought they have been formally denounced by the director of no less than Yad Vashem. When you try to point this out to them they get terribly upset and start to think that you are a nazi or something. Sad but chilling.

I know someone else who believes that there were gas chambers in Belsen and Dachau even though no one, and I mean no one maintains that any gassing occured in the camps in Germany proper.

Here is yet another example of what happens when you challenge the claims of the powerful. For nearly one thousand years the Pope claimed spiritual sovereignty over the western Church on account of a document called the Donation of Constantine. Here is just one example of the significance of this: Henry II of England obtained a papal bull - Bull Laudibilitur - authorising him to invade Irealnd on the pretext of reforming the Church; bringing it into line with Rome. The Pope claimed authority to do this under the Donation of Constantine (perhaps like the UNSC dervies its authority from the UN Charter).
The result of this grant and invasion brought centuries of grief to this island of mine.

Now, along came Lorenzo Valla during the Renaissance who proved that the Donation of Constantine was a forgery coposed four centuries after the death of Constantine (btw, no copy of Bull Laudibilitur exists either, but that's another story)! The point is, that it was possible for him to do this because it no longer mattered, it did not threaten the Pope's sovereignty, and its exposure did not threaten to undermine the contemporary world order.

Undermining the holocaust legend and the whole "evil nazis" morality play DOES threaten the current world order, whihc is why anyone who gets involved in it can kiss goodbye to their careers and in some countries they will be imprisoned.

How is it that this is the only historical phenomenon in the world that enjopys legal protection? Does that not make you even a tad suspicious?

- "The result of this grant and invasion brought centuries of grief to this island of mine."


A) are you an Irishman, in spite of going by the name "Reinhold Elstner"?

B) do you really think that Henry II would have let some papal denial to prevent him from invading Ireland, should he had already made up his mind on that matter?

(not that I'm trying to defend the pope or anything)


Petr

- "The result of this grant and invasion brought centuries of grief to this island of mine."
are you an Irishman, in spite of going by the name "Reinhold Elstner"?

Clearly, if I refer to 'this island of mine.'

B) do you really think that Henry II would have let some papal denial to prevent him from invading Ireland, should he had already made up his mind on that matter?

Yes, legality and right was and is important. Even GW Bush has to claim that previous resolutions entitle him to invaded Iraq (BS of course). They always need the fig leaf of legality.

Reinhold,
Someyears ago I spent some time sorting out fact from fiction on some WW2 aviation related tales. ( In Ireland).
A wise old man told me 2 nothing is ever taken away in the telling".
The balance is that quite often there is a grain of truth , the sorting happens.
It has happened and will continue to "happen" , as you said previously history is not dead.
The balance is this , figures have rightly been corrected but that grain of truth still remains.
It is possible to redress the "add ons" but this is small beer when the enormity of the crime is looked upon.
I would have to disagree with you Reinhold , much of what took place in Hitlers Germany was unregulated by law , proper law governed by morality and the normal checks and balances associated with the legal process.
There was evil and the NSDAP goverment was for want of a better word evil.
In common with the likes of Stalin.

Reinhold,
Someyears ago I spent some time sorting out fact from fiction on some WW2 aviation related tales. ( In Ireland).
A wise old man told me 2 nothing is ever taken away in the telling".
The balance is that quite often there is a grain of truth , the sorting happens.
It has happened and will continue to "happen" , as you said previously history is not dead.
The balance is this , figures have rightly been corrected but that grain of truth still remains.
It is possible to redress the "add ons" but this is small beer when the enormity of the crime is looked upon.
I would have to disagree with you Reinhold , much of what took place in Hitlers Germany was unregulated by law , proper law governed by morality and the normal checks and balances associated with the legal process.
There was evil and the NSDAP goverment was for want of a better word evil.
In common with the likes of Stalin.


This will go on and on forever. You believe in the allied manichaean fairy tale about the goodies- the Saintly Allies Who Can Do No Wrong - versus the baddies - The Evil Nazis. I suppose you believe that Blair has good intentions and that the present monstrousness is all a series of unfortunate mistakes which can probably be blamed on the Benighted Arabs and the Evil Saddam. And no doubt you will go on believing in your gas chambers. In the face of evidence and logic all that takes on the character of religious belief; don't expect me to believe in it, I'm long past that.

- " You believe in the allied manichaean fairy tale about the goodies- the Saintly Allies Who Can Do No Wrong - versus the baddies - The Evil Nazis. "


It is quite possible that cerberus is that naive.

However, are you sure yourself that you do not believe in the Manichaean fairytale about Saintly Germany that could no wrong?


Petr

Reinhold,
Your turn to put words in my mouth re. Tony " All things to all men Blair".
I have few illusions regarding NI and UK political figures , and TB is like all the rest.

Saintly Allies/ Evil Nazis this is your sterotype Reinhold not mine.
As far as "Evil Nazis" go some of them actually thought they were acting in the interests of Germany and that their actions were fair and reasonable.
It goes to show how when you live in an asylum you can fail to see when the inmates take over.
Evil Nazis/ Saintly Allies are you sure you are not looking in your own mirror ?

- " You believe in the allied manichaean fairy tale about the goodies- the Saintly Allies Who Can Do No Wrong - versus the baddies - The Evil Nazis. "


It is quite possible that cerberus is that naive.

However, are you sure yourself that you do not believe in the Manichaean fairytale about Saintly Germany that could no wrong?


Petr

My "Saintly Germany" is your straw-man - I am not a manichaean.

Your turn to put words in my mouth re. Tony " All things to all men Blair".
I have few illusions regarding NI and UK political figures , and TB is like all the rest.

Have you not noticed some striking parallels between the current situation and the one we have been discussing?

Saintly Allies/ Evil Nazis this is your sterotype Reinhold not mine.

You are determined to poin everything you can on the Germans but go strangely mute when confronted with allied crime - including the lying version of history we have been brought up, that is, a crime against truth.

As far as "Evil Nazis" go some of them actually thought they were acting in the interests of Germany

But you know better what Germany's real interest was? Very patronising.

It goes to show how when you live in an asylum you can fail to see when the inmates take over.

So Germany is to be likened to an asylum? Its time to detoxify yourself from all that anti-German stuff you Brits are reared on.

Reinhold,
I think you confuse "Nazi" and "Germany" , if German needed to be dragged into a war she could not win and be reduced to ashes then "Hitler and Co" did act her best interests.
You assume that I know what was in "Germany's best interests" in the 1930's-40's , and then embark on the "Anti-german Brit" angle , projection perhaps on your part ?
( Would you be harbouring a slight tinge of Anglophobia perhaps?)
Did I identify Germany's best interests ?

Sorry Reinhold I am not "Anti-German" and where do you get the "Brit." from ?
The lying version of history is your opinion , it does not have to be "my fact".
Whilst I differ from you on this what you wish to believe is up to you.
When given examples of German war crimes one thing you will not do is say "yes" a crime it was.
You will explain it away as if it is of no consequence , ignore it , describe it as "fishy" or say it was not illegal.
Acceptance of guilt is not an option.
If you look at my posts you will find that I have said " crime" in the past, just thought that i would remind you of that.
Dr.Brandt's "Sicily" and "Crete" threads , your attitude towards Axis Excesses is identical to Brandt's.

Strange , I have a room full of German kit , strange for such an "Anti-German" ?
Allied war crimes., start a thread.

When you lie you have to keep it up to the end; that is what he said in his trial in Poland and had to keep saying for the rest of his life.


Who knows what he said? You give an out of context snippet from an unsourced quote. I'm sure that passes for meaningful to you but is meaningless to me.


Btw when he made that statement he was adjuged to be mentally unbalanced.


Again, if your word was credible we would take it. It isn't, so we won't.


Do you have any idea why he did not swing in Poland?


Because prisoners testified on his behalf. In fact, one of the prisoners he saved in Auschwitz offered him a job after he was aquitted.


Would you like to address yourself to his Nuremberg testimony that I posted and that you have ignored?


Show me your source.


Also, would you like to discuss his claims about Zyklon B that contravene the laws of physics?

Such as?

Who knows what he said? You give an out of context snippet from an unsourced quote. I'm sure that passes for meaningful to you but is meaningless to me.
Just as you gave a source for Munch (for me unnecessary as I know the text anyway)?
For Munch's Nuremberg testimony see
NMT Vol. XII, p 312 ff
which you can find at http://www.mazal.org/ (I presume you can find the relevant pasage for yourself. Btw, its edited, the full testimony is available on microfilm.)
Again, if your word was credible we would take it. It isn't, so we won't.
Ah, yes, the slur - that's all you people are up to.
As if the one who posts up Munch can speak of credibility!
Because prisoners testified on his behalf. In fact, one of the prisoners he saved in Auschwitz offered him a job after he was aquitted.
Oh yes, the same prisoners who testified to gassings, yes?
Such as?
The release rates for Zyklon B - which is somewhat irrelevant in Munch's case because the facilities he describes were non-existent - there was no alleged gassing/cremating facility 1.5km SW of Birkenau in a wood. Whoever wrote his statement was ignorant of the setup at Auschwitz-Birkenau.

For Munch's Nuremberg testimony see
NMT Vol. XII, p 312 ff
which you can find at http://www.mazal.org/

Woops! Belay that - should read NMT Vol VIII AND NOT XII as stated above.

Reinhold, Were there any gas chambers at Auschwitz-Birkenau which were used to kill people ?
You are stuck on the 1.5Km distance but what about gas chambers elsewhere on the complex.

Reinhold, Were there any gas chambers at Auschwitz-Birkenau which were used to kill people ?
You are stuck on the 1.5Km distance but what about gas chambers elsewhere on the complex.

Cerberus, do try and keep up. This particular discussion is about the value of Munch's testimony. If he doesn't even know where the Kremas are located how much weight can you place on that testimony?

You know my answer to your question. The evidence for homocidal gas chambers in Auschwitz does not stand up - as increasingly even establishment historians are recognising - Hint: the historians quoted in my sig line are establishment historians and are also Jews.

So are your signature lines for my benefit alone or as a statment in general ?
Not trolling , just curious .
Do I take from one of the quotes that the gas chambers talked about might not have been in Auschwitz , but may have been in Birkenau , or were there none at all ?
What buildings did the Russians blown up at the end of the war ?
This is one of them according to the Auschwitz Museum site.
They also told me a little more about the "Red" and "White" houses.

So are your signature lines for my benefit alone or as a statment in general ?
Not trolling , just curious .
For general edification. :D
Do I take from one of the quotes that the gas chambers talked about might not have been in Auschwitz , but may have been in Birkenau , or were there none at all ?
Auschwitz was the name of the town. The main camp was called Auschwitz which was at the centre of a large constellation of satellite camps. Birkenau (or Auschwitz II) was where most of the alleged gas chambers are said to be - apart from Krema I which was in the main camp (Auschwitz I) and the Red and White houses which were just outside the grounds. When people talk about gas chambers in Auschwitz they mean the whole Auschwitz complex.
What buildings did the russias blown up at the end of the war?
What are you talking about?

I rather think you are the one who is going to have to try harder, much harder.

Your confessions aren't worth a toss.

Munch clearly has no idea what he is supposedly confessing to;

Q. Mr. Witness, you already mentioned that it was an irrefutable fact
that mass exterminations were carried out in Auschwitz. Is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you describe briefly where this extermination was carried
out, particularly the locality?
A. The extermination plant was located at Birkenau. The crematoria and
gas chambers were located one to one and a half kilometers southwest
of the Birkenau camp, camouflaged in a small woods.

Very odd because the so-called gas chambers + Kremas were located IN Birkenau.


(Shrug) Sounds like Gas Chamber and Crematoria V to me, especially if you're measuring from SS Headquarters at the camp.

Just as you gave a source for Munch (for me unnecessary as I know the text anyway)?


I wanted you to deny it and suggest he was forced to say it. He wasn't.


Ah, yes, the slur - that's all you people are up to.
As if the one who posts up Munch can speak of credibility!


LOL Prove he's lying.


Oh yes, the same prisoners who testified to gassings, yes?


Gassings happened, so yes, their testimony regarding his innocence is correct.


The release rates for Zyklon B


Quote his error.


- which is somewhat irrelevant in Munch's case because the facilities he describes were non-existent - there was no alleged gassing/cremating facility 1.5km SW of Birkenau in a wood.


There was a gas chamber and crematoria in a small group of trees at the edge of the camp, which is undoubtedly what he's referring to.

(Shrug) Sounds like Gas Chamber and Crematoria V to me, especially if you're measuring from SS Headquarters at the camp.


LOL! Krema V - SW of Birkenau? Why not take a look at a map. Is this a measure of your desperation or what? Look at this map http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/auenvironmap.html

and then project 1.5 km SW of Birkenau or SS HQ (which is NOT what Munch says). From SS HQ that would bring us into the region of Plawy.

And Krema V was not camouflaged, and in fact it was directly due west of the SS HQ.

The Russians must have blown them up , if there were no gas chambers why would the Germans blow up a few buildings at what must have been random ?

I take it from your answer that it was the Germans who did the blowing up ?
If it was the Germans who blew them up before leaving the camp , what did they blow up and why ?
It would follow that they might have been trying to hide something or at least they wanted to destroy something so completely as to prevent the Russian finding out what it might have been used for.
Found this plan as well , the folks at Auschwitz say this was a gas chamber , what do you think ?
And if the Russians did not blow it up , why did the Germans ?
The distance HM mentions , it would depend on where the reference point weas taken from ?
I am going to email the centre in Israel and see what the bottom line is on the quote , might be a laugh to see what they say if nothing else. ;)

I wanted you to deny it and suggest he was forced to say it. He wasn't.
But I didn't, did I? You didn't bank on my knowing this text.
LOL Prove he's lying.
I don't have to. For all I know he may be deliberately getting things wrong. He may not even be the original author of his statement. All I have to do is criticise his statement from within - on the basis of his claims.
Gassings happened, so yes, their testimony regarding his innocence is correct.
That is highly contentious. You must prove gassings happened; good luck to you!
Quote his error.
You did when you posted the statement. He talks about instant effect and complete death within 3-5 minutes;
"Zyklon B began to work as soon as it was released from the canisters. The effects of the gas were observed through a peephole by an assigned doctor or the SS officer on duty. After three to five minutes, death could be certified, and the doors were opened as a sign that the corpses were cleared to be burned."
There was a gas chamber and crematoria in a small group of trees at the edge of the camp, which is undoubtedly what he's referring to.
There are two houses that it is alleged were used as gas chambers due west of Birkenau, just at the edge. One of these houses still stands and is the family home of a local farmer - although there is some doubt as to whether this was the house.
There was NO crematoria sited with these houses. See Kremer's statement regarding Bunkers I and II, sometimes referred to as the white house and the red house.
Munch says 1.5 km SW just to remind you.
Another thing, Munch is talking about 1944, those houses were not supposed to have been used at that date according to the official story.
These reasons and more explain why establishment holocost peddlers are very reluctant to use Munch, e.g. Dworkk and Van Pelt do not mention him even once in Auschwitz: 1270 to the Present

The Russians must have blown them up , if there were no gas chambers why would the Germans blow up a few buildings at what must have been random ?
Very probably. There are three hypotheses to be made about the destruction of the Kremas - the Germans did it as alleged; the prisoners did it; the Russians did it.
I take it from your answer that it was the Germans who did the blowing up ?
There is nothing in my answer to justify such an assumption.
If it was the Germans who blew them up before leaving the camp , what did they blow up and why?
It would follow that they might have been trying to hide something or at least they wanted to destroy something so completely as to prevent the Russian finding out what it might have been used for.
The Germans are famously efficient. If they had gas chambers they would have removed all traces of their existence long before the Russians appeared on the horizon. And don't come back and say they were in a hurry, they weren't, they had a few months between the alleged end of gassings, and the order to evacuate the camp - plenty of time to completely eliminate all traces of evidence. There is an additional question that goes with this point as well. Testimonies states that the Germans were obsessed with secrecy vis a vis gassing which is plausible within the terms of the story. According to Nyiszli and others, they would eliminate the Sonderkommando (the Jews who supposedly assisted in the gassing/burning routine every three months or so and replace them with a new crew in order to preserve secrecy. If this is the case, why then did they allow members of the Sonderkommano to live and accompany them back to Germany on the big march? Surely if they were eliminating evidence, they would have eliminated those guys first off?
Found this plan as well , the folks at Auschwitz say this was a gas chamber , what do you think ?
They are lying. The room they call a gas chamber is the longish room bottom right labelled 'Leichenkeller' which means mortuary or mortuary cellar. These are the plans from Topf and Sons for Krema I. The museum authorities omit to tell their visitors that this Leichenkeller which they like to call a gas chamber is a "reconstruction" as they call it, done in the late 40's.
And if the Russians did not blow it up , why did the Germans ?
Why indeed.
The distance HM mentions , it would depend on where the reference point weas taken from ?
No matter what way you cut it, his testimony is wrong. SW of SS HQ are Kremas II and III, but they are INSIDE Birkenau, they are not in woods, and they are not camouflaged. Krema IV and V are due west and, again within Birkenau, not in woods and not camouflaged although there are some trees near V. The two houses are just outside Birkenau but due west, and there was no crmeatory faclities alleged to be attached as Munch claims. His statement just cannot be squared away with the known facts about the location of the Kremas and, about the two houses.
I am going to email the centre in Israel and see what the bottom line is on the quote , might be a laugh to see what they say if nothing else. ;)
The bottom line from them? Not for nothing do we call is the Holoco$t! As Abba Eban, the former Israeli foreign minister said, "there's no business like Shoah business." I would be most intrigued to see what they say.

Btw, I'm delighted to see that you are finally producing hard evidence that we can actually look at and discuss.

Reinhold,
This is not my major interest in WW2.
hard evidence.
Still it does not answer questions.
Cleaning up months in davacne would have meant that the killing would have to have been halted , I don't think was an option , they kept killing for as long as they could.
Being very efficent.
This is a bit of a myth , the Germans were as flawed as the rest of the great powers and made mistakes the same way as others did.
The blowing up , the last destruction was not doen by the prisoners , for me it has to be the Germans , there is no logical reason why the Russians would do it , none at all.
People being over looked , pure chance. Luck someone perhaps not doing what they were asked , a check not made , "who cares" type attitude.
Its very possible.
Something made post war , a poor replica , not the real McCoy.
They had the plans the evidence is in the walls of the old buildings , why is it still there / was still there in 45 , because the killing had to go until the last possible minute.
Why do this , revenge , another dead Jew , pure hate.
This is what I think , it fits with the mentality.
This effiecnt machine of war and production , it is a bit of a myth.
Mistakes do happen and its every bit as likely to be " German made".

Something made post war , a poor replica , not the real McCoy.
That's because there is no real McCoy.
They had the plans the evidence is in the walls of the old buildings
There are no plans of a gas chamber. The discovery of 88,000 pages of documentation from the Auschwitz construction office in the Soviet archives in the early 90's showed no plans of any gas chamber.
, why is it still there / was still there in 45 , because the killing had to go until the last possible minute.
Except that according to the official story the gassings stopped in November 1944 which gave the Germans plenty of time to competely eliminate all evidence.
Look, it is claimed that as a matter of policy, the SK was eliminated every three months for the sake of preserving secrecy. We are expected to believe that Himmler ordered the gassings stopped in the Autumn of 1944. If all this was true, you can be sure that the first thing they would do on receiving such an order would be to bump off the SK and anyone else who knew about gassing. Then they would dismantle the whole rig.

That is what Auschwitz Museum say Nov.44.
that would be what approx 4-5 weeks before the camp was closed down , almost to the last minute.
We are assuming that this last 4 weeks was all ordered and well disicplined , that there was plenty of time , it may not have been as well ordered anad the timeelemenet may not have appeared to have as plentiful as we can assume it to have been.
Seems that some of the SK team were missed does it not and that the destruction of the instruments of extermination was not as good as it could have been.
Auschwitz Museum say the plans I posted are off gas chambers.
The Commander of the camp stated that the extermination process was real , why should he lie when he was a dead man from the moment he was caught.
You would think that the inmates evacuated from the Russians would have been grateful and would not make up such lies , seriously , you would.

That is what Auschwitz Museum say Nov.44.
That's what I said as well. :)
that would be what approx 4-5 weeks before the camp was closed down , almost to the last minute.
Danuta Czech claims gassing discontinued by Nov 2 the claim is made that Krema V was blown on Jan 26. We are talking here about c. 12 weeks, plenty of time for them to elminate all traces.
We are assuming that this last 4 weeks was all ordered and well disicplined , that there was plenty of time , it may not have been as well ordered anad the timeelemenet may not have appeared to have as plentiful as we can assume it to have been.
In other words you don't know.
In Czech's entry for Dec 5 we are told that a detachment of prisoners is set to work on sifting out unburned human remanis to be dumped in the Vistula and then covering the alleged corpse burning pits with grass to conceal all traces. That this is nonsense is shown by the simple fact that if those facilities had been used for gassing, they would have given them the same attention as they supposedly gave those pits. Anyway, chemical analysis shows that they were not used for gassing as alleged - also, there are no ZB insertion holes as alleged in the remains.
Seems that some of the SK team were missed does it not and that the destruction of the instruments of extermination was not as good as it could have been.
What it seems is that the official story is full of contradictions.
Auschwitz Museum say the plans I posted are off gas chambers.
They say that but the plans do not. The room alleged to eb a gas chamber has the word Leichenkeller - look closely.
The Commander of the camp stated that the extermination process was real , why should he lie when he was a dead man from the moment he was caught.
Because his family were being held hostage. He also confessed to gassing 3.5 million people. No-one accepts this figure. The official figure posted by the museum is 1.5 million.
See this discussion concerning figures and how all these witness statements about gassing/burning figures converge on Soviet manufactured lies http://www.thephora.org/forum/showpost.php?p=5684&postcount=36
You would think that the inmates evacuated from the Russians would have been grateful and would not make up such lies , seriously , you would.
I'm sure the Russian prisoners were extremely grateful to be saved from a bullet in the back of the head courtesy of the NKVD, but gratitude is not a strong point amongst the chosenites - and it is they, and they alone who spin these gassings stories.

The Russians, I was unaware that Auschwitz held just Russians.
So this 1.5 million never actually died ?
Where did they go ?
Did any of this 1.5 million ever get to Auschwitz ?
What were the bulidings which were blown up ?
I discount them being blown up by the prisoners as after the prisonsers revolt its hard to imagine them being able to get explosives.
The Russians would have no reason to blow anything up , if so why , unless it was part of the "hoax".
The germans would have more reason to destroy something , after all they ran the place and would be answerable for it .

Reinhold do you think Auschwitz was a humane place , not as bad as it was said to be ?
Do you believe anything criminal took place in Auschwitz , anything which deserved any capital punishment ?
Is all the talk of unethical medical experiments , gassings , killings , Himmlers speech at posen , is it all lies , the enteries in Goebbels diary ?
The deporting of the jews was that all it was ?
The propaganda films made at Theresinstadt showing happy children playing and elderly people in relaxed mode was this the truth of resettlement ?
I find this a contrast to jews in Austria being made to wash the streets , and Jews in the baltic Ststes being beaten to death as photographed by and witnessed by German soldiers.
A recent BBC time watch documentry showed the Gas Chambers as they are today , they had no problem showing how the cyrstals went in and how the selection and gassing worked.
They also had no problem in tracing the engines of cremation to where they were made and the russians armed with te blue prints went knocking on the doors of those who had tendered for the construction of and supply of the machinery of death.
Is this all part of a plot to transfer guilt ?
I just don't buy it Reinhold.
The figure of 100,000 odd dead does that come from the death books?
I am told / have read that those subject to selection who were gassed did not have a number alloacted to them , they went straight to their deaths ?
I fainf it hard to reconcile that aman who had presented the jew and the political enemies of the stste as being such monsters , people with such guilt and hatred of all things german and devoid of any redeming features that they would be so well treated as to be afford a swimming pool a modren well appointed hospital , to be so well fed ( kosher food i suppose), and to be clothed and not abused by the SS .
If this was the lot of the camp inmate , why in the east did so many people have to get shot /
The sick joke that they were all partians is hard to swallow and the none appliaction of orders to kill political officers and communist agents is also difficult to swallow as hitler himself said it was to be.
He also had his finger prints on the final solution , if what we are told is to be believed?
Do you believe that any crimes against the jews were commited and if so what were they ?

The Russians, I was unaware that Auschwitz held just Russians.
Did I say that? No - I do wish you would read what I say after the comment about the Russians I mentioned the chosenites . . .
So this 1.5 million never actually died ?
There is no credible evidence to support this. The figure of 1.5 - revised down from 4 million (without the museum bothering to acknolwedge this in any notices etc) was done arbitrarily.
Where did they go ?
Where did the 2.5 million go when the 4 million was revised down to 1.5?
Did any of this 1.5 million ever get to Auschwitz ?
Good question.
What were the bulidings which were blown up ?
The Kremas.
I discount them being blown up by the prisoners as after the prisonsers revolt its hard to imagine them being able to get explosives
Unless the Germans left some behind.
The Russians would have no reason to blow anything up , if so why , unless it was part of the "hoax".
Because it would be very difficult to palm off those buildings as "death factories" if they were still intact.
The germans would have more reason to destroy something , after all they ran the place and would be answerable for it .
They had 12 weeks to eliminate all traces if they were trying to conceal something.
Reinhold do you think Auschwitz was a humane place , not as bad as it was said to be ?
You may read the Red Cross reports on the place.
Do you believe anything criminal took place in Auschwitz , anything which deserved any capital punishment ?
Like what?
Is all the talk of unethical medical experiments , gassings , killings , Himmlers speech at posen , is it all lies , the enteries in Goebbels diary ?
Gassings did not take place. The medical experiments are without proof and the stories come from the same Soviet source as all the other nonsense, you know, like the steam chambers, the vacuum chambers and the Lufthammer.
Killings? Executions by firing squad were carried out at Auschwitz; the Gestapo would bring condemned prisoners there for execution.
The speech at Posen was made and should be read in its entirety in German; the Goebbels diaries need to be discussed separately.
The deporting of the jews was that all it was?
Is there any evidence to the contrary - I mean anything better than Munch, Kremer, Vrba, Nyiszli etc?
The propaganda films made at Theresinstadt showing happy children playing and elderly people in relaxed mode was this the truth of resettlement ?
There is a real need for a proper historical investigation of what really happened. But this can only take place when the lies are swept away and inquiry into the facts is not punishable by law or otherwise.
I find this a contrast to jews in Austria being made to wash the streets
I don't see a problem there.
, and Jews in the baltic Ststes being beaten to death as photographed by and witnessed by German soldiers.
You want to discuss that - are you talking about Kovno?
A recent BBC time watch documentry showed the Gas Chambers as they are today , they had no problem showing how the cyrstals went in and how the selection and gassing worked.
This is a fiction because the so-called gas chamber (Krema I) was built by the Poles in 1947.
They also had no problem in tracing the engines of cremation to where they were made and the russians armed with te blue prints went knocking on the doors of those who had tendered for the construction of and supply of the machinery of death.
Not so fast cerberus; the "engines of cremation", you mean the crematory technology built by Topf and Sons? Where's the problem? There were crematories in Auschwitz, so what? You call these "machinery of death", no, you think you can slip that in under the radar? Crematories are machinery of cremation not of death.
Is this all part of a plot to transfer guilt ?
Guilt for what?
I just don't buy it Reinhold.
What do you not buy? Better still, what do you buy? Do you buy Munch? Do you buy Kremer? Or perhaps Vrba, or Muller, or Hoess? Tell me; what evidence do you find that justifies your belief in gassings?
The figure of 100,000 odd dead does that come from the death books?
More like 75k
I am told / have read that those subject to selection who were gassed did not have a number alloacted to them , they went straight to their deaths ?
That's part of the story.
I fainf it hard to reconcile that aman who had presented the jew and the political enemies of the stste as being such monsters , people with such guilt and hatred of all things german and devoid of any redeming features that they would be so well treated as to be afford a swimming pool a modren well appointed hospital , to be so well fed ( kosher food i suppose), and to be clothed and not abused by the SS .
There was and still is a swimming pool in Auschwitz, football pitches, numerous orchestras, they even had a creche for working prisoners! The holocaust peddlers dont actually deny any of this they just don't like to talk about it.
If this was the lot of the camp inmate , why in the east did so many people have to get shot /
Did they? That's another topic which we can get on to, once we have finished with gassing.
The sick joke that they were all partians is hard to swallow and the none appliaction of orders to kill political officers and communist agents is also difficult to swallow as hitler himself said it was to be.
There were a great number of partisans operating behind the German lines -you surely don't deny that do you? Some historians talk about half a million German casualites due to partisan warfare. Even if this is an inflated figure (I'm not commited to the figure) we are still looking at a very significant threat. You can be sure that in anti-partisan operations, any caught alive were shot or hanged as the Germans were entitled to do under the law.
He also had his finger prints on the final solution , if what we are told is to be believed?
The Final Solution existed. It was to involve the eventual expulsion of the Jews from Europe as all the authentic German documents state.
Do you believe that any crimes against the jews were commited and if so what were they ?
That's a big question which probably belongs to a separate post. This is the short answer:
Crimes? No. Although there might be something in Hague about moving civilians, we would have to look into it.
Did Jews suffer? Yes. So did everyone else.
Was this suffering unjustly inflicted? That's a big question which requires a separate discussion.
cerberus, I wonder if you could you confine your questions to one or two at a time rather than launching a rhetorical barrage? I think I can deal with them all consecutively , but I can't do them justice if you just deluge me, cheers. :)

Reinhold,
Its just what comes of the top of my head , free flow nothing more.
Not meant to deluge you with questions, certainly nothing researched before hand. ( To do that would take time that I don't have at present).
The Soviets may have been given to making up evidence as is their custom and blaming others for their wrong doings ( Katyn Wood , which the Germans wasted no time in turning to their own advantage).
The revised figure of dead may be more accurate but here reinhold you play something of a "Catch -22" if the figure is too high its obvious Soviet lies and if in the light of research it is reviewed its taken as proof that its still all lies .
Doubtless you will say its still all lies in any case " Catch-22".
75,000 not many in any case is it and everyone either by natural causes or by legal means.

You avoided the question , do you think anything criminal took place at Auschwitz ?
Does the world need an Auschwitz today , is the world a poorer place with out it ?

When you say you see nothing wrong with jews being made to scrub the street are you being serious ?
Do you not think that some of your credibility and objectivity goes out the window ?
Numbers into Auschwitz , do the transport lists not still exist ?
The hall of names in Israel does it not name some them ?
I think you will find Reinhold that the some names do exist but all are not known.

The "Kremas" you say they were blown up by the Russians as part of the "Hoax" so the ruins could be presented as "gas chambers" , what were these buildings before they were blown up ?
No I still don't buy into it Reinhold.
My bet is that by blowing them up so completely they thought the crime would be covered , they had confidence in their own system of lies and secrecy.
People brought in by the Gestapo for execution , hardly the prime reason for building the camp.
The Gestapo was never short of execution grounds.
Engines of death , as surely as the gas chambers were .
The Final Solution Reinhold , " Re-settlement" , " deportation" call it what you like.
No I disagree Himmler let the Cat out of the bag at Posen and Goebbels knew the score when he made his enteries in his diary.
The language is not as vital as you would have us believe, this mistranslation excuse does push things a bit. Excuse and a poor one at that.
Hitler knew the score as well , he wrote it .
It has been said that a vast amount of his orders never went down on paper , I can believe that.
Hardly the most organised man you would ever meet , not one who was used to keping regular work hours.
The people left behind blowing them up , serious there , or not hard to know .
Germans destroying evidence not really their strong point , that bastard Kremer at belsen was well caught and he had time on his hands , still by that time there was nowhere to move people to and he was left holding the baby.
Do you think anything criminal took place at Belsen ?
There is gentlamn who lies not more than 500 yrads from em who would say a great deal that was criminal took place at Belsen , he was on one of the first british trucks into it.
What do you think Reinhold ?
( And spare me the Allied wrecking the food delivery system , I didn't see any under nourished guards in the film footage.)
Could ask about Dachau , but you would just confine it to the killing of the guards ?
And if the Red Cross Reports say it was OK , were are they now ?
Do you think Reinhold that the Red Cross only saw what suited the Germans ?
At the Yad Vashem site they have an interesting collection of photographs which show the selection process under way and the sorting out of arrivals property.
It shows those deemed unfit for work being seperated and led away , well away to all those building in which you say nothing happened , certainly no gassing , the photos show just one batch of arrivals , several thousand people , all tose who went to those " inocent buildings" all children , elderly people and nursing mothers.
Where did they all go Reinhold , I still say these people were murdered , by gas and their bodies burnt.
These people did not leave Auschwitz-Birkenau , Work did not make them "Free" .

The proper historical investigation Reinhold has been done , even in post war years , fcat has been removed fro the fiction and still there is a need to bend it and mould it into something other than the truth , square peg in round hole is all you will settle for.
"Guilt for what" , do i take it that Auschwitz was "guilt free" legal and open and above board , nothing to hide , welcome all who want to see happy , working Jews , paying their way , doing something useful for the people they expolited and cheated, repaying the debt they owed to society ?
This was the party line was it not , is it truth or lies reinhold ?
Yes or No , single word answer is all that is required.
Knovo , might well be the name of the place , or do the photographs show something else , are the people on the ground sleeping ?
I refer you to the eye wittness acounts by ex-members of the German Army who saw this go on and spoke out against it in post war years.
Thing is reinhold all these sporting and leisure activities had more to do with the SS than the prisoners.
AG Fraben did they give time off to play football or go swiming ?
Did they give paid holidays as well ?
The suffering inflicted at Auschwitz "is a big question" ?
No its quite straight forward and I have asked it already , yes or no .
The moving of civilians , the killing of entire sections of scoiety , peoples , citizens of other countries , Hitler had no right to up root or move them.
Citzens from the Netherlands , france ( and the guilt of it is hard for France even today, a national shame) , belgians , Norwegians , Fins, ( small number) , Greeks , Italians, British ( a few) , Hungarians , Poles , Czechs.,
Danes, Russians,to name but a few.
What right did the SS have to make these people moved from their own countries to serve the racist demands of a failed artist and paper hanger.
But that's right hitler knew nothing about this not a single thing , April 45 :
" You did what !!"
"Yes My Fuhrer Himmler and Heydrich , they got a little carried away"

Sorry , what can I say , still what would you have said reinhold if GB. had gone under and the germany representative in Dublin had called with DEv. one day to discuss handing over Irish citizens for " resettlement" ?
Would Dev. have given them up , even if the heavy had of the NAzi diplomatic service hadadvised him that it would be in irelands interst to ercognise the New Order in Europe and that these few Jews would mean nothing , " let us help you with your Jewish problem ?"
It would have happened , would you have a problme seening Irish Jews , Irish citizens , scrubbing O'Connell Street tomorrow morning ?
( or would you strip them of their passports anad citizenship before you put them on their knees.
Hard words Reinhold but Austrain , irish what does it matter ?
Tomorrow morning Reinhold would it acuse you a problem .
#Simple answer Yes or No ?

Its just what comes of the top of my head , free flow nothing more.
Not meant to deluge you with questions, certainly nothing researched before hand. ( To do that would take time that I don't have at present).
Fair enough, but its not possible to do justice to your points if there is a whole stream of them at once.
The Soviets may have been given to making up evidence as is their custom and blaming others for their wrong doings ( Katyn Wood , which the Germans wasted no time in turning to their own advantage).
But also making up stories about their enemies - domestic and foreign - they were the leading experts on show trials.
The revised figure of dead may be more accurate but here reinhold you play something of a "Catch -22" if the figure is too high its obvious Soviet lies and if in the light of research it is reviewed its taken as proof that its still all lies .
Doubtless you will say its still all lies in any case " Catch-22".
The revised figure is not based on research. It was arrived at when the relevant minister decided on it because none of the holocostologists could agree. That the figure is revised still does not ofeer proof of gassings one way or the other - it just shows the flimisness of their story.
75,000 not many in any case is it and everyone either by natural causes or by legal means.
Yes, the cause of death is entered in each case.
You avoided the question , do you think anything criminal took place at Auschwitz ?
That wasn't how you put the question. It is impossible to imagine a large concentration of people for 4 years without a crime being committed. Of course there was criminal activity involving prisoners and staff. One can check the records of the camp and the SS court to establish what kind of activities were going on; all the ususal stuff one would expect from penal institutions.
Does the world need an Auschwitz today , is the world a poorer place with out it ?
What's this supposed to mean?
When you say you see nothing wrong with jews being made to scrub the street are you being serious ?
We are talking about gassings, you know, mass extermination and into this you drag street scrubbing!
Do you not think that some of your credibility and objectivity goes out the window ?
Do you not think your credibility suffers when you drag such things into a discussion about mass murder?
Numbers into Auschwitz , do the transport lists not still exist?
Yes and no - but do transport records prove gassing?
The hall of names in Israel does it not name some them ?
So what? The holocost is part of their religion.
I think you will find Reinhold that the some names do exist but all are not known.
Yes, I know all that.
The "Kremas" you say they were blown up by the Russians as part of the "Hoax" so the ruins could be presented as "gas chambers" , what were these buildings before they were blown up ?
No, I don't know if they were blown by the Russians or not, but it makes more sense than the official story.
Krema = crematory.
My bet is that by blowing them up so completely they thought the crime would be covered , they had confidence in their own system of lies and secrecy.
That is ridiculous. If they had confidence in their own "system of lies" as you call it why did they allow the SK to survive? If they spent so much effort on eliminating traces of the pits, why not the same logic in the case of the Kremas?
We are supposed to believe that they formed a special unit or prisoners to travel around the countryside digging up mass graves to burn all the half rotten corpses and then pass the remains through bone crushing machines whilst the Russians were bearing down on them - all this as part of their mania for covering up - so why did they just blow up the supposed gas chambers? What is left is quite significant, enought to show that there are no insertion holes as alleged, and enought to takle wall samples for chemical testing the results of which spell bad news for the gassing stories.
People brought in by the Gestapo for execution , hardly the prime reason for building the camp.
Who said it was? It was primarily an industrial complex.
The Gestapo was never short of execution grounds.
What's that supposed to mean? What a mindless comment.
Engines of death , as surely as the gas chambers were .
Crematories are not engines of death - when you cremate someone they are already dead.
The Final Solution Reinhold , " Re-settlement" , " deportation" call it what you like.
That's what they called it see Wannsee, Posen etc.
No I disagree Himmler let the Cat out of the bag at Posen and Goebbels knew the score when he made his enteries in his diary.
I disagree, let's look at the texts.
The language is not as vital as you would have us believe, this mistranslation excuse does push things a bit. Excuse and a poor one at that.
Sorry, no. A mistranslation can utterly distort a word, a document. When a sign in a German airport says that unattended baggage will be 'sonderbehandelt' does it mean that the authorities are going to take it off and gas it with Zyklon B and then cremate it?
Hitler knew the score as well , he wrote it .
Where and what?
It has been said that a vast amount of his orders never went down on paper , I can believe that.
Said by who?
Hardly the most organised man you would ever meet , not one who was used to keping regular work hours.
You've met him?
The people left behind blowing them up , serious there , or not hard to know .
Germans destroying evidence not really their strong point , that bastard Kremer at belsen was well caught and he had time on his hands , still by that time there was nowhere to move people to and he was left holding the baby.
Do you think anything criminal took place at Belsen ?
Oh that's interesting - are you going to allege gassings for Belsen even though no one does?
There is gentlamn who lies not more than 500 yrads from em who would say a great deal that was criminal took place at Belsen , he was on one of the first british trucks into it.
So what exactly would he say?
( And spare me the Allied wrecking the food delivery system , I didn't see any under nourished guards in the film footage.)
I did, in some of the photos.
Could ask about Dachau , but you would just confine it to the killing of the guards ?
Ask what? More gassings?
And if the Red Cross Reports say it was OK , were are they now ?
You doubt this?
Do you think Reinhold that the Red Cross only saw what suited the Germans ?
Read the report. Its very long though.
At the Yad Vashem site they have an interesting collection of photographs which show the selection process under way and the sorting out of arrivals property.
I know the series - does anything in the series show gassing? Do any of those photos prove gassing?
It shows those deemed unfit for work being seperated and led away
No it doesn't, that is what their lying captions say.

, well away to all those building in which you say nothing happened , certainly no gassing , the photos show just one batch of arrivals , several thousand people , all tose who went to those " inocent buildings" all children , elderly people and nursing mothers.
Did you notice something else about those pictures? They contradict our star gassing witnesses who alledge al sorts of cruelty and mistreatment at the rail head. None of those people looks frightened or distressed, and they have their proeprty with them, which goes against the story as well. These people don't even bother thinking about these photos when they post them up, if they did, they would hide them away.
Where did they all go Reinhold , I still say these people were murdered , by gas and their bodies burnt.
That's because you prefer to believe perjureres like Rudolf Vrba ratrher than trust in science , logic and the ordinary demands of proof.
These people did not leave Auschwitz-Birkenau , Work did not make them "Free" .
So you believe.
The proper historical investigation Reinhold has been done
No it hasn't - except by some revisionists, who are then punished for interfering with the sacred story; heretics.
even in post war years , fcat has been removed fro the fiction and still there is a need to bend it and mould it into something other than the truth
That's what they do and you seem happy to swallow all that crap - are you not embarassed by that? You always ignore the evidence oir try to deny it. You prefer to believe in contradictory stuff, much of which even contravenes the laws of physics!
square peg in round hole is all you will settle for.
That's exactly what you do when you are happy to believe that Zyklon B can release and kill people in 3 minutes contrary to thelaws of chemistry and physics!
I refer you to the eye wittness acounts by ex-members of the German Army who saw this go on and spoke out against it in post war years.
What are you referring me to in particular? Statements made by men trying to save themselves from the gallows? How much probative weight should be placed on such statements?
No its quite straight forward and I have asked it already , yes or no .
Yes or no what? When I tell you that I cannot believe in gassings because such a belief involves swallowing contradictions, proven lies, physical impossibilities and so on, you seem upset? Like the religious believer who is offended by one who refuses to believe.
The moving of civilians , the killing of entire sections of scoiety , peoples , citizens of other countries , Hitler had no right to up root or move them.
Citzens from the Netherlands , france ( and the guilt of it is hard for France even today, a national shame) , belgians , Norwegians , Fins, ( small number) , Greeks , Italians, British ( a few) , Hungarians , Poles , Czechs.,
Danes, Russians,to name but a few.
War is hell, this kind of stuff happens in wars.
What right did the SS have to make these people moved from their own countries to serve the racist demands of a failed artist and paper hanger.
Actually no. Accoriding to Brigitte Hamann's book 'Hitler's Vienna' he sold quite well. His ambition was to be an architect - which he never realised.
Sorry , what can I say , still what would you have said reinhold if GB. had gone under and the germany representative in Dublin had called with DEv. one day to discuss handing over Irish citizens for " resettlement" ?
Do you know that the Slovaks paid the Germans to take Jews away!? Now why would they pay them to take away their Jews if they were such lovely people?
Would Dev. have given them up , even if the heavy had of the NAzi diplomatic service hadadvised him that it would be in irelands interst to ercognise the New Order in Europe and that these few Jews would mean nothing , " let us help you with your Jewish problem ?"
It would have happened , would you have a problme seening Irish Jews , Irish citizens , scrubbing O'Connell Street tomorrow morning ?
or would you strip them of their passports anad citizenship before you put them on their knees.
Instead of indulging in this cheap and mawkish rhetoric, why don't you ask yourself the obvious question: how is it that the Jews came to be treated in this way? Why is there entire recorded history a testament to similar kinds of receptions and expulsions? Might they themselves have something to do with their widespread and historically long-lasting unpopularity?

So how trials , "The People's Court" could be quite at home in Russia , same standards of proof and justice required.
I fail to see how anyone can have faith in the systems of either Germany or Russia under the rule of Stalin / Hitler.
reinhold , I disagree anything other than a complete and utter denial of the Holocaust is a "Catch -22".
I asked you if anything criminal went on in Auschwitz and you took it to mean wrong doing between prisoners and guards , implying that it was illegal deals / trading between them.
Do you think the treatment , imprisoning, executing off and stealing from the prisoners was illegal?
Do you think the the purpose of the camp system was criminal ?
If it was not criminal do you see a need for an Auschwitz today , is the world a poorer place with a functioning Auschwitz ?
The above qquestion means what it says reinhold , if you don't want to answer it that is fine by me.
You do seem from the latter part of your answer imply that the treatment of the Jews was in some way justified and given the record of the Jews , even from post on Phora , is there a need for similar treatment or " resettlement" today ?

The street scrubbing.
It is all one of the same , its means of marking people out as victims , applying guilt and punishment with out any reason , its a branding process- for victim and perputrators alike.
The same cruel attitude which made Jews scrub the streets , subject to the verbal abuse and physical asults of their one time neighbours which led directly to the gas chambers , hate and the justification of hate for no other reason than to promote what was a bankrupt political , social and racial message upon which the laws of a state were based and the morality of its population was regulated to serve the goverment at the expense of society itself.
This reinhold you will water down to siut your own value system of Nazi germany but none the less it holds true , all the black propaganda which was so aimed at justification of what would follow , the scrubbing of the streets making the Jews do an honest days work , making them pay for their crimes.
It led back to that killing spree at Konovo ( hope that's spelt right).

The Soldiers interviewed in "A Warning from history" were not charged with any criminal acts , they had no reason to curry favour to get of a hook they were never on.

Bad news for the gas chambers ...Leutcher stuck his foot in it , the proof stands.

Belsen and dachau.
I did not say they were extermination centres , only that when the whole rotten structure came down Kremer was holding the baby , there was no where else to hide the truth.
If such care was taken of the prisoners , there is a considerable difference between the thousands of dead and dying the guards.
I have seen not one badly fed guard.

Did I ever meet Hilter , no , nor have you.
The photographs are what they are , not faked and not fabriacted.


The "Kremas" , you have to wonder why they would be need at all , given the care taken of the inmate population ?
This is no doubt to be taken as further proof that they served no purpose save to prove a Hoax .

There was no effort made to panic the prisoners prior to the gassing.
Why tell a few thousand people they are going to die , raw and new to the place , afraid and vunerable they can be guided and hered as required if brtual treatment is not employed.

The transport lists , those quoted in books do seem to number quite a bit more than the death books do so where did they go Reinhold ?
Certainly the photographs did not show gassing but the selection process , the movenet of belongings , the obvious difference those marked for work and those marked for death is a contrast .
Strange how those buildings , the ones shown in the plans feature in the photos,must be a co incidence.
No Reinhold , the Gestapo / execution grounds , it was not a mindless comment.

When you re direct the question to me reinhold it is a sign that you are uncomfortable with what is being asked.
I refer you back again to the question regarding the treatment of and potential fate of Irish citzens ( jews) who Hitler would have asked for in the event of his having come to terms with GB or defeating her.
Would you have agreed with handing them over ?
Would you see them today abused and made to scrub O'Connell Street would it be " good enough for them " ?

This is the sort of hate which makes ethnic cleansing possible and can produce what Europe experienced during the war and in post war years ?

I asked you if anything criminal went on in Auschwitz and you took it to mean wrong doing between prisoners and guards , implying that it was illegal deals / trading between them.
That's my answer, I'm sorry if it doesn't meet your expectations but there you are.
Do you think the treatment , imprisoning, executing off and stealing from the prisoners was illegal?
The best way to answer the question would be to examine the records of the SS courts - concerning SS malpractices, and the records of disciplinary proceedings against prisoners.
Do you think the the purpose of the camp system was criminal ?
Of course not.
If it was not criminal do you see a need for an Auschwitz today , is the world a poorer place with a functioning Auschwitz ?
What kind of an idiotic question is that?
The above qquestion means what it says reinhold , if you don't want to answer it that is fine by me.
It doesn't mean anything beyond being some kind of recondite insult.
You do seem from the latter part of your answer imply that the treatment of the Jews was in some way justified and given the record of the Jews , even from post on Phora , is there a need for similar treatment or " resettlement" today ?
On balance, the Jews are not a good influence in the countries in which they reside - history proves this - and they should be encouraged to leave.
The street scrubbing.
It is all one of the same , its means of marking people out as victims , applying guilt and punishment with out any reason , its a branding process- for victim and perputrators alike.
Nonsense. Sometimes the only cure for overweening arrogance is to be brought down a peg or two, as St Therese of Liseux said, "Humiliation is good for the soul."
The same cruel attitude which made Jews scrub the streets , subject to the verbal abuse and physical asults of their one time neighbours which led directly to the gas chambers
You make a swift move from the realm of fact to fiction.
hate and the justification of hate for no other reason than to promote what was a bankrupt political , social and racial message upon which the laws of a state were based and the morality of its population was regulated to serve the goverment at the expense of society itself.
Absolute poppycock! The NS revolution was hugely popular amongst the mass of Germans. Unlike the socialist paradise of the USSR, they never had to put a fence up to keep people in.
This reinhold you will water down to siut your own value system of Nazi germany but none the less it holds true
True because you have declared it to be so?
, all the black propaganda which was so aimed at justification of what would follow , the scrubbing of the streets making the Jews do an honest days work , making them pay for their crimes.
So you agree that they were in need of an honest day's work? You agree that they were guilty of crimes?
It led back to that killing spree at Konovo ( hope that's spelt right).
No it didnt. Do you have the slightest idea what was happening in the Baltic states prior to their liberation by the Germans?
The Soldiers interviewed in "A Warning from history" were not charged with any criminal acts , they had no reason to curry favour to get of a hook they were never on
What are you talking about?
Bad news for the gas chambers ...Leutcher stuck his foot in it , the proof stands.
What proof? You haven't posted any yet? If there was proof you would have found it by now and posted it triumphantly. Instead you have to resort to dogmatic restatements of your irrational beliefs.
Belsen and dachau.
I did not say they were extermination centres , only that when the whole rotten structure came down Kremer was holding the baby , there was no where else to hide the truth.
Sorry, I can't follow this stream of consciousness.
I have seen not one badly fed guard.
Well I have.
Did I ever meet Hilter , no , nor have you.
But I'm not making these kinds of statements; "Hardly the most organised man you would ever meet . . ."
The photographs are what they are , not faked and not fabriacted.
I said they were genuine - its the captions that are lying.
The "Kremas" , you have to wonder why they would be need at all , given the care taken of the inmate population ?
Look, they were built to dispose of the dead - people do die you know. There was some urgency about this in the light of the typhus epidemic. We can always look at the details of the crematories.
This is no doubt to be taken as further proof that they served no purpose save to prove a Hoax .
They served the purpose of safely disposing of the dead. You know that typhus infected corpses are dangerous?
There was no effort made to panic the prisoners prior to the gassing.
But that conflicts directly with certain witnesses who talk about beatings and savage dogs at the platform. Don't you see the pattern ? The story is full of contradictions - which witness do you prefer to believe and why?
Why tell a few thousand people they are going to die , raw and new to the place , afraid and vunerable they can be guided and hered as required if brtual treatment is not employed.
That's one version, which at least has the virtue of being more plausible than the other.
The transport lists , those quoted in books do seem to number quite a bit more than the death books do so where did they go Reinhold ?
Some were employed in the Auschwitz complex, others were dispersed to other industrial projects within the region.
Certainly the photographs did not show gassing but the selection process , the movenet of belongings , the obvious difference those marked for work and those marked for death is a contrast .
There is nothing in those pictures to support selection for gassing or gassing.
Strange how those buildings , the ones shown in the plans feature in the photos,must be a co incidence.
Why do you find that strange? Look at a plan of the campo. Look at what there is half-way between Kremas II/III and Kremas IV/V and that should help you.
No Reinhold , the Gestapo / execution grounds , it was not a mindless comment.
You think there is something strange about the Gestapo executing partisans etc?
When you re direct the question to me reinhold it is a sign that you are uncomfortable with what is being asked.
LOL! Nothing you have presented could cause the least discomfort. Surely you realise I am familiar with everything you have presented so far and with a lot more stuff you have not presented?
I refer you back again to the question regarding the treatment of and potential fate of Irish citzens ( jews) who Hitler would have asked for in the event of his having come to terms with GB or defeating her.
This is a question that does not refer to any reality. It is idle speculation on your part designed to embarass me into answering the way you would like me to. It wont work.
Would you have agreed with handing them over ?
Would you see them today abused and made to scrub O'Connell Street would it be " good enough for them " ?
Perhaps the Irish would have been like the Slovaks . . .
This is the sort of hate which makes ethnic cleansing possible and can produce what Europe experienced during the war and in post war years ?
I don't subscribe to the PC ideology. There are no people on the planet who can compete with the Jews when it comes to hate. Their very identity is defined by it - just read the Torah and Talmud on that score.
Don't you have anything better than that?

..... Do you have the slightest idea what was happening in the Baltic states prior to their liberation by the Germans?What was happening? I'm curious.


Perhaps the Irish would have been like the Slovaks . . .
Uh-huh. They seem pretty canny about that sort of thing.

There are no people on the planet who can compete with the Jews when it comes to hate. Their very identity is defined by it - just read the Torah and Talmud on that score. Can't argue with that.

What was happening? I'm curious.



Uh-huh. They seem pretty canny about that sort of thing.

Can't argue with that.

Have a look at this http://www.angelfire.com/ks3/klubs/default.htm; about Latvia under Soviet domination.
One can begin to understand why the Germans were greeted as liberators and were deluged with volunteers. Just a few weeks ago the Estonians unveiled a memorial to their fallen Waffen SS veterans to the great annoyance of the chosenites. :D

Reinhold,
Yes I recognise that you have read a lot about Auschwitz and put your own "spin" ("Daz" ), on what took place there. ( Sorry ). :(

Nothing took place at Auschwitz which was criminal is the view you take.
The people transported there , what crimes had they been convicted off , what period of time had they been sent there for ?
What crimes in particular did elderly people , nursing mothers and children take part in and what industry employed them ?

The work force was captive was it not ?
Slave labour for want of a better word ?
Did the SS not profit from their labour ?
Did the Industrial units not profit from their labour?
Did it not serve the German war effort ?
The vast majority of people in Auschwitrz had not done anyting to deserve being locked away in such a place.

Can you provide any source which will give the charges and convictions of those who came to the camp system , including the name of the Judge who passed sentence , also the article of law which used to bring charges and convict ?

You say it was all legal Reinhold , that their detention was legal and that no criminal act was done to them .
I refer you back to the question asked previously , that which you declared to be idiotic.

If the camp seved a legal purpose , if it was useful to that society, is the world a poorer place without a functioning Auschwitz ?
Why does every country not have an Auschwitz type set up if it was useful to both inmates and to the society which brought it forth ?
Would you see a need for an Auschwitz in Gemany , Britain or Ireland today ?

Do you think that such a place might be considered reasonable ?

You might say this is all "poppycock" but Reinhold , in Germany such things were secret , when you look at the radocal treatment of the mentally ill and mentally handicaped , does " the final Solution become impossible.
( Of , course , they are all lies told to support the final solution and I am only falling sheep like into the trap.) " Catch-22"

I can't see Reinhold why you would be insulted , I honestly can't , none was intended.

If Auschwitz was an accomadation centre for slave labour it must have been basically criminal in nature and those who made profit from its being are equally criminal.
Did the inmate recieve nay pay for their labour apart from the generous board and lodgings provided , the fully " Bupa" hospital and swimming poole , recreational play areas and the fresh air of the polish Country side ?
Did they get any reciept for their belongings , do any exist ?
I would imagine that they would in such a well run ordered camp system , one win which nothing criminal took place get a reciept on arrival for teir belongings and an invintory of what they brought with them ?
How long did the State expect them to be there before moving them on.

What industry employed the sick , elderly and the children ?
( Sorry that's right , the sick were well cared for in a modern well appointed Hospital. Dr Mengele looked after them and never once did he break his medical oath to serve the best interest of his patients and to keep them informed and gain their consent for all treatments and investigations carried out.).

Arrogance.
No Reinhold it does not make the jump between fact and fiction , what you are doing is adding more "Daz" to the wash.
You ignore the whole thrust of the party to make the jew a non person something less than human , your idea that a little humility is good for the soul , well forcing people to scrub the streets , its not criminal is it ?
It goes on every day of the week in Dublin , Manchester, New york and Limerick.
Have you ever been asked to do it ? hate is a very primal emotion to place in people , it can lead to the final solution of all the nations problems.
Sorry Reinhold , I don't have to provide you with any truimph of proof , its already out there.
I can be 110% sure that no matter what proof might be provided by myself or any other it willl never be enough to satisfy , " Catch -22" will always apply.

Poppycock .
No Reinhold , the whole population of Germany was but one complete " at risk register" , the law served not the people but the State and the head of Sate Adolf Hitler.
Morality did not exist and certainly had no place in the NSDAP view of what was legal.
EG. Auschwitz and all that it was.
The blank card to kill at will in the east.( Partsians one and all !!).

The killings in Kovno ( spelt that right I think !) as described by german soldiers in the BBC series
" The Nazis A Warning From History ".
You implied that such accounts would be from men who wanted to escape punishment themselves. This was not the case.
Likewise the interview with petras Zelionka a man who guarded those about to be killed and then in turn became a killer himself , his accounts are you wll say no doubt lies and words put into his mouth by the Russians.
Catch -22 again .
Why bother giving you quotes and references , Catch -22 will no doubt apply.

Yes I recognise that you have read a lot about Auschwitz and put your own "spin" ("Daz" ), on what took place there. ( Sorry ). :(
You are becoming quite insulting now - not to me - but of yourself. Who is spinning?
The Auschwitz museum call that room in the plans a 'gas chamber'
The plans say it is a Leichenkeller. I merely point this FACT out to you -and you can read it yourself - and you accuse me of spin!! That is truly outrageous -you have exceeded yourself. Only a Jew could argue like that!
Nothing took place at Auschwitz which was criminal is the view you take.
If you or anyone else can actually prove that there was in the sense that you mean, then I will accept it. No problem.
The people transported there , what crimes had they been convicted off ,
Some were common criminals who served out sentences and were released - plenty of records to show that. Others were political enemies - communists and subversives. In wartime states do intern their internal enemies - every state does it. The Jews were perceived - with good grounds - to be political enemies of Germany. Btw, you know of course that a lot of Jews who stayed in Germany were never transported and were generally left alone?

The work force was captive was it not ?
No, some of them were paid labourers. A lot fo the people working in Farben were employees.
Slave labour for want of a better word ?
Did the SS not profit from their labour ?
Did the Industrial units not profit from their labour?
Did it not serve the German war effort ?
Look, I am interested in the Holocost story. The very serious slanderous charge made against the Germans that they exterminated 6 million Jews. You just want to demonise the Germans and you will drag anything and everything in. You cant do it with gas chambers so now you try this tack. Forget it.
The vast majority of people in Auschwitrz had not done anyting to deserve being locked away in such a place.
That's not for you to say. Every state has the right and the duty to identify its enemies, domestic and foreign. Some may have been innocent in that sense but you would have to look at it case by case. Or at least come up with a solid example of someone unjustly incarcerated.
Can you provide any source which will give the charges and convictions of those who came to the camp system , including the name of the Judge who passed sentence , also the article of law which used to bring charges and convict ?
There are books written on this, mostly in German. If you are really interested I will look then up. Perhaps the most well-known example was the SS doctor who was condemned to death by an SS court for killing patients - like that Shipley (?) maniac.
You say it was all legal Reinhold , that their detention was legal and that no criminal act was done to them .
You would have to prove that it was illegal. Seeing as it was the state doing it, that would be a tough number. Was the internemnt of Japanese in the US illegal?
I refer you back to the question asked previously , that which you declared to be idiotic.
That question makes no sense. Perhaps you should reformulate it if you think there is a serious point to be made.
If the camp seved a legal purpose , if it was useful to that society, is the world a poorer place without a functioning Auschwitz ?
That question is truly idiotic and unanswerable in those terms; it makes no sense.
Why does every country not have an Auschwitz type set up if it was useful to both inmates and to the society which brought it forth ?
Every country has a penal system. That kz system belonged to a particular historical situation in a particular place at a particular time. It was not pleasant, and I have no doubt some people were unjustly treated - like the Japanese-Americans in the US - but war is hell, it throws everything out of joint and people suffer in all sorts of ways.

You might say this is all "poppycock" but Reinhold , in Germany such things were secret ,
There was nothing secret about the KZ system.

when you look at the radocal treatment of the mentally ill and mentally handicaped , does " the final Solution become impossible.
You are the same man who had never heard about the gas chamber claims for K4.
If Auschwitz was an accomadation centre for slave labour it must have been basically criminal in nature and those who made profit from its being are equally criminal.
Assuming that to be so, criminal under what law?
Did the inmate recieve nay pay for their labour apart from the generous board and lodgings provided , the fully " Bupa" hospital and swimming poole , recreational play areas and the fresh air of the polish Country side ?
Did they get any reciept for their belongings , do any exist ?
I would imagine that they would in such a well run ordered camp system , one win which nothing criminal took place get a reciept on arrival for teir belongings and an invintory of what they brought with them ?
How long did the State expect them to be there before moving them on.
These are all interesting questions. There are a lot of records surviving which would helpo a researcher answer those questions. I concentrate on the gas chamber claims. Put it this way; if there were no gassing stories, we woudl not even have heard about Auschwitz, let alone be discussing the treatment of prisoners in the BUNA works.
( Sorry that's right , the sick were well cared for in a modern well appointed Hospital. Dr Mengele looked after them and never once did he break his medical oath to serve the best interest of his patients and to keep them informed and gain their consent for all treatments and investigations carried out.).
No less a holohoaxer than Elie Weasel himself talks about how both he and his father were taken care of in the hospital.
Arrogance.
No Reinhold it does not make the jump between fact and fiction , what you are doing is adding more "Daz" to the wash.
No, you are beginning to see for yourself how flimsy the gas chamber stories really are. You constantly change the subject, dragging in this and then that, when you really must know by now that the official story cannot stand scrutiny. We are just scratching the surface here, we could go into every statement made by so-called witnesses to gassings and in that way you would see for yourself how it is a house of cards.
You ignore the whole thrust of the party to make the jew a non person something less than human
No, they didn't do that; they deprived them of citizenship prior to the plan which was expulsion. There was to be no room for Jews in the new Germany. You know that the Zionists worked very closely with the Nazis?
See Lenni Brenner's 51 Documents: Zionist Collaboration With the Nazis
your idea that a little humility is good for the soul , well forcing people to scrub the streets , its not criminal is it ?
According to what law?
It goes on every day of the week in Dublin , Manchester, New york and Limerick.
I've never seen it.
Have you ever been asked to do it ? hate is a very primal emotion to place in people , it can lead to the final solution of all the nations problems.
I have tried to answer all your questions, you still insist on firing a barrage of different topics all at once after I asked you not to, but you never answer my questions, so here it is again: why is Jewish history one long sorry tale of their unpopularity wherever they go? What is it in them that brings out disgust and dislike in others? The answer is in their own words, in the Torah, the Talmud, and it is also in their own actions throughout history.
Sorry Reinhold , I don't have to provide you with any truimph of proof , its already out there.
No its not, you and I have looked at some of it together here and if you are honest you will have to admit that this stuff would not even make it into a prosecutor's brief.
The killings in Kovno ( spelt that right I think !) as described by german soldiers in the BBC series
" The Nazis A Warning From History ".
I posted a link which would supply the context for what was happening in the Baltic states upon German liberation, you have chosen to ignore it; why?

Reinhold,
You fail to take on board that the whole treatment of the Jews and those who did not play ball with the party was the Holocaust , it was not an exclusively Jewish experience.

As i said to Brandt before I am not a Jew , but your own Anti-Semetic views are abundantly clear.

The insult you say I have handed out to you is nothing when compared to that which you have handed down to the men , women and children who experienced and died in the Concentration and Extermination camp System.

To date you have made no effort to explain where the elderly and infants went who entered the camp system.

The slave labour aspect you pay lip service to and to say " no gas achambers and who would have heard of Auschwitz" is an insane comment.
Slave labour is what it is and your rather lame excuse that people where paid cust no ice.
Yes some people were employed by the companies but they tended not to reside in concentration camps.
As for being cared for in hospitals , well , just lets say there would be little TLC from the people who ran the camps and more rom their own who "looked after them".

You also fail to grasp the total picture of the holocaust and poison which the party injected into German society at all levels , from the colouring in books at school.
"Trust no fox" etc , just what message does this give over ?
Look at the " Eternal Jew" , what sort of message and indoctrination does this bring .
When you say "look I am interested in the holocaust story" your own ignorance and lack of awareness is well out in the open.
It was more than just the killings which you say never took place , the whole show from the party manipulation of scoiety , public attitudes , party production of racially based law , which had no basis in morality save that of the Fuhrer and no process by which it could be questioned , only implemented.

Why are you so annoyed when the slave labour aspect of Auschwitz -Birkenau is presented to you , get over it reinhold , its the truth , its FACT.
The people sent there went to be worked to death , plain and simple , if you could not work on arrival you were killed and if you could no longer work you you were killed.
The CZ system was a means to control the people , not of protecting them.
The system was known but behind the gates was not for public consumption.

Did you ever ask yourself why German beacme a nation which was almsot completly in uniforms , control and indoctrination Reinhold.

That the Jews were to blame for German defeat in 14-18 , the crude inacurate cartoons , showing Blonde German girls being sexually eyed up by fat , greasy , hook nosed Jews with money , gold watches and tight suits .
Come on Reinhold , you can't just focus on the gas chamber lies and ignore the party line , the spin , the propaganda image of the Jews , designed to make them so different from the blonde , fit, hard working Aryan image of a proud Germanic people , simple and hard working.
This was designed to go hand in hand with the laws to isloate and remove Jews from German Society , not only was citizenship removed , they were marked out to be sub human , the whole ideation being the racial doctrin of the NSDAP.
Germany became a racist state , the end result was the Holocaust.

Gas and T4 ( you say K4) victims. If you look back you will see an exchange between Dr. Brandt and I in which I reflectedto him that a lot of people died from respiratory failure ,and added that this might not be a complete lie as gas does usually present some respiratory difficulties which might lead to death.
Like wise your idea that I had never heard of the commissar order , Reinhold its like K.Wood , draw your own conclusions.
(Well you already have and as in the holocaust its what suits you).
Please don't worry , it bugs me not.

Enemies in time of war .
You forget Reinhold Hitler and co declared a section of their own population to be subhuman and declared them an enemy of the people , with no reason at all to back it up.
Jews are jews , not Germans. These people paid taxes , they contributed , they employed people , they were lawyers , doctors , buisness people , dentists , they were not the criminal entity you so crudely and foolishly take them to be.
Hook , line sinker. Swallowed.
Criminal under what law? Reinhold Roland Friesler had under hitlers guidance presented " German Law" a law which served Hitler and the prty not the people, law had become a joke .
Making people scrub streets , they had the freedom to leave , to say no I don't want to do this.
Reinhold , your ability to protect the NSDAP state in all its utter evil does disgust me , I make no bones about it , your values are not mine.
Your ability to side step the obvious theft from prisoners in a camp which you say was not criminal and in which no abuse oor criminal activity took place , when you have declared the photos quoted to have no bearing on the treatment of the individuals shown.
Reinhold , their property was being stolen , can you honestly say that this not the case.
Pack of cards, house of cards , absurd Reinhold and well you know it.
6,000,000 you mentioned the figure Reinhold, I did not.
I blame not the German people , I blame evil men who ran the party , the men like Friesler , Himmler , Heydrich , Eichmann , Muller , Hitler , Bormann , Goring , Eicke , to name but a few well known names .
These camps existed not to protect but to control.
You can say my question to you regarding do we need them today ?
You did not answer.
The link , it did not work. " bad gateway". Will try again.
Does it explain why German troops sttod by and let killing in the streets occur.
Does it explain why Hitler himself ordered that local populations should be actively encouraged to take extreme actions against Jews ?
Your defination of the Holocaust is unique , denial is unique.

You fail to take on board that the whole treatment of the Jews and those who did not play ball with the party was the Holocaust , it was not an exclusively Jewish experience.
You keep begging the question. You keep going back to your holocost as if. That is the very point in contention.
As i said to Brandt before I am not a Jew , but your own Anti-Semetic views are abundantly clear.
So what? It grew the day I realised they were for the most part a bunch of remorseless liars, i.e. the holocost lie.
The insult you say I have handed out to you is nothing when compared to that which you have handed down to the men , women and children who experienced and died in the Concentration and Extermination camp System.
You are question begging massively, yet again.
To date you have made no effort to explain where the elderly and infants went who entered the camp system.
Breaking up families would be inuhmane, especially if deportation is the eventual aim.
The slave labour aspect you pay lip service to and to say " no gas achambers and who would have heard of Auschwitz" is an insane comment.
Slave labour is what it is and your rather lame excuse that people where paid cust no ice.
What cuts no ice is your insistence on believeing in gas chambers without an ounce of proper proof.
Yes some people were employed by the companies but they tended not to reside in concentration camps.
As for being cared for in hospitals , well , just lets say there would be little TLC from the people who ran the camps and more rom their own who "looked after them".
But we are told that anyone who became sick was gassed? Weasel unwittingly refutes that lie in his own book! Whayc ant you just honestly acknowledge that?
Look at the " Eternal Jew" , what sort of message and indoctrination does this bring .
I have seen the film in its entirety, I think it is excellent.
When you say "look I am interested in the holocaust story" your own ignorance and lack of awareness is well out in the open.
None so ignorant as those who refuse all evidence logic and science.
It was more than just the killings which you say never took place , the whole show from the party manipulation of scoiety , public attitudes , party production of racially based law , which had no basis in morality save that of the Fuhrer and no process by which it could be questioned , only implemented.
And you just cannot accept that the NS regime was extremely popular with the majority. There were no fences built around NS Germany!
Why are you so annoyed when the slave labour aspect of Auschwitz -Birkenau is presented to you , get over it reinhold , its the truth , its FACT.
I am annoyed by your anti-German trip. The charge is a very serious one -that they exterminated 6 million Jews. Your camps and labour all pales in comparison to that.
The people sent there went to be worked to death , plain and simple , if you could not work on arrival you were killed and if you could no longer work you you were killed.
That's why there is an army of survivors all making their claims!
The CZ system was a means to control the people , not of protecting them.
The system was known but behind the gates was not for public consumption.
NS Germany was put into a state from siege from day one.
Did you ever ask yourself why German beacme a nation which was almsot completly in uniforms , control and indoctrination Reinhold.
Yes, have you?
That the Jews were to blame for German defeat in 14-18 , the crude inacurate cartoons , showing Blonde German girls being sexually eyed up by fat , greasy , hook nosed Jews with money , gold watches and tight suits .
Do you deny that the filthy porn business is a kosher affair?
Come on Reinhold , you can't just focus on the gas chamber lies and ignore the party line , the spin , the propaganda image of the Jews , designed to make them so different from the blonde , fit, hard working Aryan image of a proud Germanic people , simple and hard working.
They are different - they are a nation of parasites.
This was designed to go hand in hand with the laws to isloate and remove Jews from German Society , not only was citizenship removed , they were marked out to be sub human , the whole ideation being the racial doctrin of the NSDAP.
They were to be removed from Germany.
Germany became a racist state , the end result was the Holocaust.
The holocost is precisely waht is in dispute - you dont even acknowledge the dispute -you are the man who prefers to believe the holohuxters than the evdience of your own senses! You accept gas chamber when the plan clearly says Leichenkeller.
Gas and T4 ( you say K4)
a slip
victims. If you look back you will see an exchange between Dr. Brandt and I in which I reflectedto him that a lot of people died from respiratory failure ,and added that this might not be a complete lie as gas does usually present some respiratory difficulties which might lead to death.
Like wise your idea that I had never heard of the commissar order , Reinhold its like K.Wood , draw your own conclusions.
(Well you already have and as in the holocaust its what suits you).
Please don't worry , it bugs me not.
I am not Dr Brandt as I have told you before and I am not answering for him.
Enemies in time of war .
Pack of cards, house of cards , absurd Reinhold and well you know it.
6,000,000 you mentioned the figure Reinhold, I did not.
I know what is absurd - that Zyklon B can release in three minutes; that 32 people can fit into a space measuring 1 sq meter (Gerstein); that diesel fumes can kill; that geysers of blood shoot up out of the ground; that someone cnfesses to thigns which are impossible and it goes on and on.
The link , it did not work. " bad gateway". Will try again.
Probably exceeded his allocation. Its a site detaling the Soviet atrocities in Latvia by the Jew-run NKVD. That might explain why people there took it out on the Jews when the Germans liberated them in 1941. They were pogroms. Btw, Hitler was against pogroms, he believed in using legal instrumenst to deal with the Jewish problem.
----
I dont think there is really much point going on with this. You want to believe the story, I prefer to believe in hard evidence etc. It takes up too much time, especially when you keep evading the evidence and bombarding me with loads of different points - I have now asked you three times to desist, but to no avail. What is the point of this? If you have any solid evidence to support gas chamber stories post it, otherwise I'm not interested.

Reinhold,
You have seen the "Eternal Jew" from start to finish and think it is excellent.
In was sense do you percieve it to be excellent , its structure or its content ?

As far as its content goes you would have to be ignorant beyond belief to grasp it as being factual.
Crude propaganda , the SS found that it was not popular in the cinema going masses.
An oscar winner , it was not.
"Triumph of The Will" now that is an excellent film. I don't subscribe to the party dogma , but credit where its due a piece of history well documented.

In human to break up families , this never stopped them before , why should it have done so when extermination was the end product.
Thank you for showing the misunderstood human face of "The Final Solution".
Perhaps the minor crime of the "Solution" , can just see Himmler making a foot note " "Reichsfuhrer SS. No jewish family is to be broken up" :rolleyes:
The beging question , murdered. It has been answered.

The 6,000,000 again Reinhold this is your figure , you denial and NSDP friendly laundry service makes you focus on the " no gas chambers, show me the proof" aspect without acknowledging the road which led to Auschwitz , Treblinka et al.
Proof there is a mass of proof which historians accept having examined it , this is according to you the product of "estiblishment historians" , which is not to be trusted and is there to serve a specific agenda which in turn serves Israel and a money making industry.

Is there any point Reinhold , "Catch -22" applies.
Reinhold does it not worry you that no historian worth his salt takes the "it never happened" side seriously ?

Hospital care , what care Reinhold, the hospital care was at best basic and at worst just a delay in reaching the gas chambers.

Reinhold , I am not Anti-German this is lost on you.
NSDAP was not Germany and increasingly they represented the german people less and less, 47% at most when they peaked Reinhold.
Tell me if one of the political parties in the South got into power , then passed a law to out law all the others , declared a state of emergency and locked up all others , said " don't worry its all legal" would you not get alarmed ?
Your majority that makes 53% not voting your way ?
No fences , true but how practical is it for people to protest when all aspets of life are so completley controlled and the possibility of a stay in Dachau is an option , you say its not too bad and try and get on with life.
Bit like NI 20 years ago , you make the best of it and hope for better times ahead. As long as the ugly side does not touch the individual you can pretend its not as bad as it is.
Uniforms for everyone , medals for mothers , you tell me Reinhold ?
I say its about control and ther party influence getting into the home , the very fabric of scoiety , its about taking away the individual and presenting only the image of the party and its view of what the nation should be.
Control Reinhold and indoctronation , what is your view ?

You mean when Hitler took the nation out of the league of nations and when the ideation of the nation under threat , enemies from within and from without...jews , Communists , The British all against us , Poles against us.
Yes , the party line Reinhold , hook , line and sinker.
See Overy and Wheatcroft's "Road to War" might give you the impression that all this state of seige might have served Hitler most of all and gave basis for his plans.

Reinhold , the modern day porn industry really holds no interest for me .
Its a money making process , are the Swedish and America porn barons all Jews ?
Am I to take this as some justification for the Holocaust ?
Do you have an affinity for lame dogs are what ?
Nation of parasties. ignorant , sterotyped , party line Reinhold , comes from watching that graet classic "The Eternal Jew" and reading " Trust no Fox".

Tell me Reinhold , if you are a parrent would you allow your children to see "The Eternal Jew" and would you read them " Trust no fox" and that type of educational material ?
Let me sahe an experience with you.
When I lived in N.I. my two girls went to an Integerated School .
A " neighbour" asked them " why do you want to go to school with "them" he, then used one of the good old Northern ireland terms to brand and identify "them" .
Needless to say the two girls were less than impressed and disgusted at the ignorance factor.
Reinhold does the ignorance factor in reation to "jews" not jump at you , do you see the parallel I am making ?
take the same man back to 1930-40 germany take out one type of "them" insert an other type of "them" and the same ignorance exists.
Welcome to the world of the ignorant sterotype and the process of control and indoctronation , we learn this .

Jew run NKVD , see Stalin , he was the organ grinder.
SD , Gestapo , see Hitler he was the organ grinder, same organs different tunes , same results.

Hitler / Stalin , pots calling kettles black. "Monsters Inc."
Different slogans , different flags , same aganda. Power and control.

You have seen the "Eternal Jew" from start to finish and think it is excellent.
In was sense do you percieve it to be excellent , its structure or its content ?
Both, although it should be remade and updated with new Jewish crimes included like Zionist colonialism and atrocities against the Palestinians; the Jew-dominated porn business; the illegal body organ trade and host of other abominations too numerous to mention.
As far as its content goes you would have to be ignorant beyond belief to grasp it as being factual.
What in it do you find inaccurate?
An oscar winner , it was not.
LOL! And who runs the Oscars! As if an oscar is anything to commend a film!
"Triumph of The Will" now that is an excellent film.
I agree.
I don't subscribe to the party dogma , but credit where its due a piece of history well documented.
I don't subscribe to party dogma either. The Nazis said nothing about the Jews that has not been said by all peoples throughout history.
In human to break up families , this never stopped them before , why should it have done so when extermination was the end product.
The extermination of which you have yet to produce any credible evidence.
The 6,000,000 again Reinhold this is your figure
Not mine, it is the figure supplied by the Jews - do oyu knwo where that figure comes from?
you denial and NSDP friendly laundry service makes you focus on the " no gas chambers, show me the proof" aspect without acknowledging the road which led to Auschwitz , Treblinka et al.
Oh, you want to talk about Treblinka now. Tell me about that.
Proof there is a mass of proof which historians accept having examined it , this is according to you the product of "estiblishment historians" , which is not to be trusted and is there to serve a specific agenda which in turn serves Israel and a money making industry.
More or less.
Reinhold does it not worry you that no historian worth his salt takes the "it never happened" side seriously ?
Name one of these worthies.
Hospital care , what care Reinhold, the hospital care was at best basic and at worst just a delay in reaching the gas chambers.
And your proof for the existence of homcidial gas chambers is . . .?
Reinhold , I am not Anti-German this is lost on you.
Yes you are. The whole German nation has been saddled with guilt for a crime that did not happen - they have the mark of Cain upon them - the 9th commandment - Thou shalt not bear false witness - that is the crime against the German people which you happily and ignorantly repeat without the slightest pause for thought. Are you not embarassed by that?
NSDAP was not Germany and increasingly they represented the german people less and less, 47% at most when they peaked Reinhold.
Tell me if one of the political parties in the South got into power , then passed a law to out law all the others , declared a state of emergency and locked up all others , said " don't worry its all legal" would you not get alarmed ?
That would depedn on whether or not the situation called for a state of emergency or not. If the state was threatened what do you expect it to do, roll over to have its tummy tickled?
Your majority that makes 53% not voting your way ?
90% (?) in one of the plebiscites?
47% of a very high turnout is more than any mdern party can even dream of, NSDAP was very popular.
No fences , true but how practical is it for people to protest when all aspets of life are so completley controlled and the possibility of a stay in Dachau is an option , you say its not too bad and try and get on with life.
A miniscule proportion of the population were interned before the war - communists and other subversives.
I say its about control and ther party influence getting into the home , the very fabric of scoiety , its about taking away the individual and presenting only the image of the party and its view of what the nation should be.
Control Reinhold and indoctronation , what is your view ?
I say that is a pretty good description of mass consumerist society that turns everyone into a producer/consumer. You are living in a totalitarian trash culture and you are powerless to do anything about it.
You mean when Hitler took the nation out of the league of nationsQuite right - and the Americans wouldn't even join it and Germany was not alone in leaving it - Others joined but later left the organization: Brazil (1926), Japan (1933), Italy (1937). Germany was only a member from 1926 to 1933, and the Soviet Union from 1934 to 1940.
Reinhold , the modern day porn industry really holds no interest for me .
Its a money making process , are the Swedish and America porn barons all Jews ?
What does it matter whether you are interested or not, its not a matter of taste - it is socially destructive, it is dehumanising and exploitative.
Am I to take this as some justification for the Holocaust ?
Oh yes, the Holocost that you can;t find a shred of credible evidnece for (I notice you have given up trying after the Leichenkeller)
Nation of parasties. ignorant , sterotyped , party line Reinhold , comes from watching that graet classic "The Eternal Jew" and reading " Trust no Fox".
You are ignorant, there is nothing in that film that has not been said by just about everyone who has had the dubious pleasure of their company for last few thousand years!
Tell me Reinhold , if you are a parrent would you allow your children to see "The Eternal Jew" and would you read them " Trust no fox" and that type of educational material ?
I will ensure that they know what they need to know about everything, including this topic.
Let me sahe an experience with you.
When I lived in N.I. my two girls went to an Integerated School .
A " neighbour" asked them " why do you want to go to school with "them" he, then used one of the good old Northern ireland terms to brand and identify "them" .
Needless to say the two girls were less than impressed and disgusted at the ignorance factor.
Let me tell you something about this. When you use the term "Northern Ireland" that is offensive to me. That is the name given to the occupied six counties by the British. Now do you understand what "them" means?
Reinhold does the ignorance factor in reation to "jews" not jump at you , do you see the parallel I am making ?
I see that you know nothing about the Jews and are clearly insensitive about the situation in the north.
Jew run NKVD , see Stalin , he was the organ grinder.
The NKVD was top heavy with Jews and it was they who devised the Gulag system as well as the shot in the back of the head.

Reinhold,
Your fair and neutral views on Jews are well illustrated by your wish to "remake"and "update" this educational film.
( Educational for reasons which you might disagree with ).

The parallel made between my daughters experiences of bigotery , ignorance and intolerance in Northern Ireland you either miss it completely or ignore it .
Northern Ireland for me is a geographical loaction and is mean only as that.
I see nothing insensitive about it nor was any meant , I would reflect back to you your own insensitive approach to the subject.
( Parallels to that which was fcaed by my daughters).
The party line / ethos , Reinhold myturn to LOL. You subscribe to NSDAP all the way down the line.
Reinhold I am not Anti-German , this steroype view is yours not mine , it serves your own purpose and lacks any objective cred.
You still have said nothing about the NSDAP fixation with uniforms and control.

The modern day porn buisness , you obviously have some linkage to the degenerate Jew , good germans would never buy it. :rolleyes:
And you think that Hitler was none of the three that you mentioned. :rolleyes:
Reinhold.
"Albert Speer :His Battle With The truth" by Gitta Serney.
P253.
"They would not have known that the decision to liquidate physically the Jews of Russia had now been made. It was communicated to the SS in April and May. (1941)
Obersturmbannfuhrer Ernst Ehlers , a former civil servant, wrote later,
"As the Russian campaign approached I wasa member of Einsatzgruppe B. About April or May 1941 I was told that I was earmerked for promotion as chief of Einsatzkommondo 8 and that I was to report to the police academy at Pretzsch ( Silesia) where einsatzgruppen destined for the Russian campaign were being formed.On the occasion of a staff conferenceduring which our duties were explained , we were informed quite unequivocally that aside from combat against partisans, etc., we would have to carry through the liquidation of the Jewish population in the rear. I could hardly believe this appalling disclosure...could hardly believe that anything like this could be envisaged....I finally decided to request a release from the proposed post..afterwhich I was assigned without ado to HQ staff."

P420 Hitler to Horthy.
"In Poland this state of affairs has been...cleaned up;if the Jews there did not want to work, they were shot. If they could not work they were treated like tuberculosis bacili with which a healthy body may become infected. This is not cruel if one remembers that even inocent creatures of nature such as hares and deer when infected have to be killed so that they cannot damage others. Why should the beasts who wanted to bring us Bolshevism be spared more than these inocents".
P248 "Christa Schroder , Hitler's second senior secretary , told me of one such occasion when I talked with her in 1977. I mentioned that one of Bormann's former adjutants Heinrich Hein ( to whom I had entrusted the daily recording of Hitlers Tabletalk) had told me that he didn't think Hitler knew about the extermination of the Jews. Schroder laughed. "Oh, Heimchen-" she said "he's too good for this life. Of course Hitler knew " Not only knew , it was all his ideas , his orders"
"I clearly remember a day in 1941 , I think it was in early spring" she said.
"I don't think I will ever forget Himmler's face when he came out after one of his long " under four eyes" conferences with Hitler. He sat down heavily in the chair on the other side of my desk and buried his face in his hands, his elbows on the desk.
"My God , my God" he said " what I am expected to do.
"later , much later she said" when we found out what had been done. I was sure that that was the day Hitler told him the Jews had to be killed"
( Frau Schroder, appalled at her own indiscretion , which she feared , if published could cost her the few friends she still had from the time of Hitler , later asked me not to use her account. I complied with her request during her lifetime.).
P6-7.
Following her examination of Irvings claim that Hitler knew nothing of the extermination of the Jews until at least after October 1943.
Speer wrote to Serney.
It was " lubicrous" he wrote , for anyone tp claim that this could have been anyone's idea but Hitler's.
"It shows a profound ignorance of the nature of Hitlers germany , in which nothing of any magnitude could conceivably happen , not only without his knowledge , but without his orders". The fact that there is no documentary evidence of such a Fuhrer command meant nothing, he said. he knew from ample personal experience that many of Hitler's most critical orders were isued only verbally.
"From the historical point of view" he wrote " the matter has now, thanks to your expose , been dealt with. Nonetheless , unfortunately, irving has provided fodder for the abominable efforts of those whose one aim is to create a new "war guilt lie" , as it was called after 1918 , in order yet again to decieve the German people. It appals me".

Speer knew Hitler , he met him , and at this stage had no gain.

Reinhold.
On the subject of slave labour , something which seemed to vex you a little.
Memo to Rosenberg from Otto Brautigam dated 25/10/42.
"After countless prisoners of war who could have been used for work have died like flies of starvation ( in the POW cages in the occupied east) we now have the grotesque experience of having to recruit millions of labourers from the Occupied eastern Territories in order to fill the gaps that have arisen in german production. With the usual limitless disregard for the Slavic people " recruiting methods are used , a precedent for which one would have to go back to the blackest periods of the slave trade2.

On the subject of the medical experiements which never took place and the care taken and lack of criminal activity at Auschwitz.
A specimen case for you.
The administrator of "Das Ahnenerbe" a racial research agency favoured by Himmler.
"As you know the Reichsfuhrer SS has given instructions that SS captain Prof.Dr.hirt is to be given all possible assistance for his research.
For certain anthropological examinations, about which I have already informed the reichsfuhrer SS he now needs 150 skeletons of prisoners i.e. jews , which are to be put at his disposal by the KZ Auschwitz.What is still required, however is an official order from the Reichsfuhrer SS to the Reichssicherheitshauptamt.
Attached :draft for Reichssicherheitshauptamt.

Some months later a decision was aparantly taken to do the " prepartory research" on designated victims in Auschwitz before killing them.
On 21/06/43 an SS doctor Bruno Berger reported , this time to eichmann that owing to the danger of epidemics in Auschwitz , he was interupting his work there.
"We have altogether worked on 115 individuals of which 79 are male Jews, 2 Poles, 4 Asians (Russians) and 30 female jews.The prisoners, seperated by sexes , are at present in quarantine, lodged in a hospital building.
In order to carry on the work , it is now essential that they be transferred as quickly as possible away from danger of epidemics at Auschwitz to KZ Natzweiler"

The work involved finishing the "reserach then killing the unfortunate individuals and using their skeletons to conclude this "research".

Doubtless these people all volunteered to make this contribution to science.
Hope you tell your children about this before you show them "The Eternal Jew" .
A low punch , yes but be certain of what you are preaching Reinhold, this is its end result .
Nothing criminal , pull the other one.

Your fair and neutral views on Jews are well illustrated by your wish to "remake"and "update" this educational film.
( Educational for reasons which you might disagree with ).
When did I claim to have a neutral view about the Jews? And yes, I think it is a fair view.
The parallel made between my daughters experiences of bigotery , ignorance and intolerance in Northern Ireland you either miss it completely or ignore it .
Northern Ireland for me is a geographical loaction and is mean only as that.
'Northern Ireland' is a political term not geographic. "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". Just as we do not say Londonderry but Derry. I see nothing insensitive about it nor was any meant , I would reflect back to you your own insensitive approach to the subject.
Are you being totally disingenuous now?
You still have said nothing about the NSDAP fixation with uniforms and control.
You are the one with the fixation with the uniforms -dont you colect that kind of stuff?
And you think that Hitler was none of the three that you mentioned. :rolleyes:
Three what?
"Albert Speer :His Battle With The truth" by Gitta Serney.
P253.
"They would not have known that the decision to liquidate physically the Jews of Russia had now been made. It was communicated to the SS in April and May. (1941)
Speer said what he thought they wanted to save his neck.
Obersturmbannfuhrer Ernst Ehlers , a former civil servant, wrote later,
"As the Russian campaign approached I wasa member of Einsatzgruppe B. About April or May 1941 I was told that I was earmerked for promotion as chief of Einsatzkommondo 8 and that I was to report to the police academy at Pretzsch ( Silesia) where einsatzgruppen destined for the Russian campaign were being formed.On the occasion of a staff conferenceduring which our duties were explained , we were informed quite unequivocally that aside from combat against partisans, etc., we would have to carry through the liquidation of the Jewish population in the rear. I could hardly believe this appalling disclosure...could hardly believe that anything like this could be envisaged....I finally decided to request a release from the proposed post..afterwhich I was assigned without ado to HQ staff."
Do you understand what is meant when a court takes judicial notice of something? It means in this case that the court declares as a fact, that these things happened, despite the fact that the only evidence was a series of dodgy documents - the originals of which have to this day never been seen. The defence lawyers were shown "copies." To deny the "facts" as declared would be to hang. The only chance these "defendants" had of saving themselves was to fashion a defence based on following orders. I have read the transcripts of the Einsatzgruppen trial where this is made abundantly clear.
Speer was a lying traitorous shit who would say anything to save himself and later to ingratiate himself with the victors by telling them what they wanted to hear.

On the subject of slave labour , something which seemed to vex you a little.
Memo to Rosenberg from Otto Brautigam dated 25/10/42.
The subject does not vex me, it is how you use it. You want to move away from the gas chamber question, i.e. the holocost becasue even you must realise now that it is a house of cards.
Hope you tell your children about this before you show them "The Eternal Jew" .
A low punch , yes but be certain of what you are preaching Reinhold, this is its end result .
Nothing criminal , pull the other one.
If you expect me to discuss that stuff, you had better give proper sources. Btw, I am not preaching anything, I am looking at the evdience for the gas chamber claims, something you prefer to avoid.

Speer was a lying traitorous shit who would say anything to save himself and later to ingratiate himself with the victors by telling them what they wanted to hear.

Speer is a great example of an autohagiographist, and spent quite a while doing the "Never-was-a-Nazi dance".

I think Speer knew exactly what was going on.
Reinhold, I may "collect the stuff" but I didn't put a nation into uniform nor am I a "Herman Goring" when it comes to the stuff , uniforms would not be what I collect most off.

Regarding the Holocaust , the gas chambers were only one aspect of it.
The mass shootings in the east was another , the racial treatment and ethos of the party , the "laws" passed etc , all one of the same.
The slave labour and abuse of people to death is again part and parcel of it.
Including the murders and medical experiemnts which you say never took place.

I don't avoid it , I have been down this raod before and why repeat the whole things again.
I know that no matter what is presented you will see it as either being scientifically impossible , Jewsih / Estiblishment propaganda or a conspiracy of lies.
"Catch-22" will always apply.
The slave labour SS profit making out of the inmates , the murders as given presented by way of the 115 people killed in the name of racial research refute your view tht Auschwitz was not a criminal place and that crimes against humanity did take palce there.

The "Eternal Jew" which you would wish to see " shot again " and " updated " along with your own one sided view of the victms makes for a less than objective approach to the subject.

You say because I say these events took place that I am Anti-German beacuse I endorse the guilt placed on Germany as a result of the actions of a minority of powerful individuals who took on themselves to act in the name of the German people , whilst keping their activities largely secret from them.

You say I am disingenous regarding N.I. , no not at all.
My views on that part of the Island and its complex problems I gained at first hand and I certainly don't subscribe to the bigotery and ignornace of the hard line idiots no matter what they are waving or what colour they are painting the pavements.

If we have the loyalist and republican hard liners painting pavementstones and you endorsing the jews being sent out to scrub them Northern Ireland would indeed have a problem for every solution . :D

I think Speer knew exactly what was going on.
Speer knew the truth but chose to lie in order to save his own neck. Ironically he was probably the true criminal as his incessant demands for more labour will show.
Regarding the Holocaust , the gas chambers were only one aspect of it. The mass shootings in the east was another ,
Don't you realise how rude it is to continue to assume as a fact something that is fiercly contended by your interlocutor?
I don't avoid it , I have been down this raod before and why repeat the whole things again.
I know that no matter what is presented you will see it as either being scientifically impossible , Jewsih / Estiblishment propaganda or a conspiracy of lies.
I will never abandon a committment to science ad logic to facilitate your quasi religioous beliefs.
The "Eternal Jew" which you would wish to see " shot again " and " updated " along with your own one sided view of the victms makes for a less than objective approach to the subject.
It is not my view that the Jews dominate the porn business, it is a demonstrable fact. It is not my view that the Jews are committing daily atrocities against the Palestinians, they are doing that, or haven't you noticed?
You say because I say these events took place that I am Anti-German
I say you are anti-German because you insist on believeing that rubbish in defiance of the refutation of those allegations. I presume you will continue to believe in Munch even though I showed you how he cannot be relied on. I presume you will continue to believe that that room was a gas chamber even though the plans themselves say Leichenkeller. I presmue you will continue to ignore everythiing I say about these things?
You say I am disingenous regarding N.I.
Yes, totally - notice how you continue to say NI after I told you thqat this is a loaded and offensive description. Why can't you be honest and say you support the inclusion of the six counties in the UK?
At this stage I regard you as little more than a troll and doubt there is any point in continuing this sterile correspondence.

Reinhold.
Troll, you may say what you like.
What i do believe is that you will alwyas be less than objective in your approach to what is regarded as the Holocaust and Jews in general.
I care little for the porn buisness , zilch in fact.
The people who sell it do so to make money , if they are Jews they are jews , if they are no they are not.
The moral judgement and injury which you show is not anti-pon but anti-semetic.
The wrongs of the middle east i am on record on Phora as saying that the State of israel has not learnt fromits own experience and is playing the wrong game in the middle east.
Jews have protested against their own goverment in their policy and its execution. Perhaps you think they are all to busy making " home movies" .

Regarding science.
Nikzor say that science is the basis for proving that it did ttake palce and their site does have what they regard as evidence to say it did take place.
As far as I am aware the science for it has been questioned and the revisionist arguement has been found wanting.
Zundesite still pushes the Letucher case even though it has been found to be a lost cause.
reinhold , I can link to them and cut and paste what they say , you will just say rubbish , so what is the point.
There is none.

Regarding "NI" Reinhold I have seen "N.I." warts and all , I know it much better than you.
This "occupied six counties" or " For God and Ulster" view on life is out the window , you think it solves problems , it maintains them and instills hatred and a divided identity.
If Ireland is to be a nation it won't happen as long asthis coat trailing goes on.
Unfortunately you are too blind to see it.
When you have covered the ground I have you may then lecture me , until then respect my attitude which is Pro - Irish .
The day of the extreme nationalist is over and the day of the " Flag waving Uncle Andy is over"
In short Reinhold , both deserve one another and all the bloody bile of hatred and ignorance they can produce.
i hope they collectively drown in it and allow the rest of us to try and make something of this sorry mess for our children.
As you can see it makes me rather sick.

Reinhold.
[QUOTE]Troll, you may say what you like.
What i do believe is that you will alwyas be less than objective in your
That's exactl;y what I mean by trolling. You accuse me of lack of objectivity. This coming from a man content to believe in war atrocity propaganda despite being shown how some of the evdience cannot stand up! You have a nerve.
I care little for the porn buisness , zilch in fact.
That's very selfish of you. What if it is socially and morally destructive?
The people who sell it do so to make money , if they are Jews they are jews , if they are no they are not.
Jews will do anything to make money, and yes, it is a Jew dominated industry
The moral judgement and injury which you show is not anti-pon but anti-semetic.
You got it the wrong way round, my poor opinion about them is based on their behaviour. All of which can be very easily shown.
The wrongs of the middle east i am on record on Phora as saying that the State of israel has not learnt fromits own experience and is playing the wrong game in the middle east.
They are ethno-supremacists, what other "game" could they play?
Jews have protested against their own goverment in their policy and its execution.
Yes, people like Mordecai Vanunu of whom I have a very high opinion.
Perhaps you think they are all to busy making " home movies".
Perhaps sarcasm helps you to avoid the serious issues at stake.

Regarding science.
Nikzor say that science is the basis for proving that it did ttake palce and their site does have what they regard as evidence to say it did take place.
They would say anything to protect the holohoax, that is their business.
As far as I am aware the science for it has been questioned and the revisionist arguement has been found wanting.
According to Nizkor? Don't make me laugh!
Zundesite still pushes the Letucher case even though it has been found to be a lost cause.
No it hasn't. You have not given a moment's study or thought to the issues involved, you are not in a position to say one way or the other.
reinhold , I can link to them and cut and paste what they say , you will just say rubbish , so what is the point.
That would be an excellent idea because then I could show you exactly what is wrong with their stuff. Go on, I dare you.
Regarding "NI" Reinhold I have seen "N.I." warts and all , I know it much better than you.
Hopw do you know that?
This "occupied six counties" or " For God and Ulster" view on life is out the window , you think it solves problems , it maintains them and instills hatred and a divided identity.
The six counties are occupied by the British. We never invited them here, ever, and their departure is long overdue.
If Ireland is to be a nation it won't happen as long asthis coat trailing goes on.
Its none of your business anyway.
When you have covered the ground I have you may then lecture me , until then respect my attitude which is Pro - Irish .
No one who is pro-Irish would ever call that place "Northern Ireland".
The day of the extreme nationalist is over and the day of the " Flag waving Uncle Andy is over"
Its not over until the only place where the union jack flies is in the British embassy.
In short Reinhold , both deserve one another and all the bloody bile of hatred and ignorance they can produce.
Typical British comment. Wash your hands over the very problem you have created.
i hope they collectively drown in it and allow the rest of us to try and make something of this sorry mess for our children.
I hope you drown in the mess you have created.
As you can see it makes me rather sick.
That's good because nothing make me puke more than English cant.

http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/leuchter/

Reinhold,
You can follow the link and dispute what you want.

Your views on Ireland , well my experience is somewhat more real than yours.
Tell me do you see that Omagh bomb as a " terrible mistake " ?
The video footage shot in the minutes following was a great wake up call for Ireland.
Sorry Reinhold , all that is in the bin.
None of my buisness , sorry Reinhold , perhaps more mine than yours.

Jews , you have said enough to have nailed your colours to the mast.
The serious issues , anti-semtic trash , a blaming culture ?
"No-one who is..." that is your sterotype Reinhold , just shows you how wrong you can be .

Sorry if you link to Zundel you will still finds he use FL. to stock his stall.

[QUOTE=cerberus]http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/leuchter/

Reinhold,
You can follow the link and dispute what you want.
So you just like to post things and then run with an insult.
Why don't you get your teeth into this:
http://veritas3.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/not-the-science/
Postscript response to Rudolf
http://veritas3.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/not-the-science/postscript.shtml
Rudolf
http://vho.org/GB/c/GR/CharacterAssassins.html
http://vho.org/GB/c/GR/Green.html
http://vho.org/GB/Books/trr/8.html#8.4.4. (from the report)
http://www.vho.org/GB/c/GR/Evasions.html (response to the Green postscript)
http://www.yourforum.org/revforum/viewtopic.php?t=1137&highlight=green (thread on pellet withdrawl)
see the revisionist chemist Rudolf and the holocoster chemist Green debate the issue, ie. both sides, instead of that Nizkor crap. When your through with all that, maybe we can talk about gas chambers.
Your views on Ireland , well my experience is somewhat more real than yours.
How do you know? My views on my country? What business is that of yours? Are you Irish?
Tell me do you see that Omagh bomb as a " terrible mistake " ?
Have I said anything about Omagh at all?
The video footage shot in the minutes following was a great wake up call for Ireland.
Sorry Reinhold , all that is in the bin.
None of my buisness , sorry Reinhold , perhaps more mine than yours
No, its none of your business at all.
Tell me, were you in the British army? Is that your connection?

Well what do you think ?
As i said before work takes me between UK and Ireland , I spent about 6 months of the year in each.
Insult and run,
Only if you read it that way , its your perception Reinhold which is your greatest handicap.
Your view of an occupied 6 counties fits perfectly into the mindset which placed that bomb and that which then ran for cover and did damage control.
British Army , no.
Waht do I know about the past 30 years in the North , a "hellva" lot more than you Reinhold of that you can be sure.
I have seen my share of broken bodies and broken minds. Had you seen the same you might think differently.
I will look at the links you provided and I will question them.
And on the level , I thank you for them.

Your view of an occupied 6 counties fits perfectly into the mindset which placed that bomb and that which then ran for cover and did damage control.
So calling a foreign occupation foreign occupation means I side with those bombers? What kind of sick logic is that?
Waht do I know about the past 30 years in the North , a "hellva" lot more than you Reinhold of that you can be sure.
How do you know? You don't know anything about me or my expoerience or my knowledge of the situation. One thing is for sure, no Brit will tell me how to understand my own country or history. That is extremely arrogant of you.
I have seen my share of broken bodies and broken minds. Had you seen the same you might think differently.
How do you know I haven't?

"HDIKYH" ?
You might be a little less into an extreme view and more willing to see that its not as simple as you say.

EG " Brits out" = Peace in Ireland.
You still have a million odd "Brits" or people who consider themselves "Brits" in the North , are you going to " deport them all to England" ?
I could be forgiven for thinking you are one of these daft ex-pat. Yanks who see things so simply.
BTW. Shelve the "Brit" remark , if you don't mind.
Sick logic , is it not what the bomb all round us and shoot all round us guys called it "British Occupied Six counties" or something like that , sounded very much what you called it.
Why do you disagree with " the armed struggle " ? *
I think it has no place in Ireland and I am pro agreement.

I apologise if I sounded "arrogant" , as I have already stated , have seen enough of what * produced.
Do "Trolls" usually make an apology , funny never saw one do it , you might just be wrong ?

Have taken a quick look at the links.
Very techanical , more so than a lay man can quickly read and come up with an opinion.
A few questions still give me problems, the higher concentrations need to delouse and why did Irving not call this man ?
If its as simple as it sounds , its a winner he failed to play.
You can't deny something which did not happen can you ?

Techanical as it is a firm expert examination of the content is required.
I remain unconvinced adn as i said to you before the holocaust was much more than gas chambers , and no I don't deny their being and the mass gassing at Auschwitz.

Having seen IHR website I wondered where they got the name " Prussian Blue " from , those two teenage girls who would sing inspirational songs.
Sick name for a teenage duo if you ask me.

EG " Brits out" = Peace in Ireland.
No, that is not my posistion. Brits out = end of British presence in Ireland.
You still have a million odd "Brits" or people who consider themselves "Brits" in the North , are you going to " deport them all to England" ?
They are welcome to stay. But the British state must go. Those people are Britain's responsibility, they were put here rather brutally, we did not invite them. The country was partitioned against the express will of the majority (1918 election results).
I could be forgiven for thinking you are one of these daft ex-pat. Yanks who see things so simply.
No I am not. You should give up trying to patrionise me and distorting what I am saying.
BTW. Shelve the "Brit" remark , if you don't mind.
When you stop insulting me.
Sick logic , is it not what the bomb all round us and shoot all round us guys called it "British Occupied Six counties" or something like that , sounded very much what you called it.
Look, that they call it that, and I call it that does not mean that I endorse their campaign. It is merely a fact that a portion of this country remains under British occupation.
Why do you disagree with " the armed struggle " ? *
I don't disagree with armed struggle. I have my own views about how that should be conducetd, Omagh style stuff is right out in my book.
I think it has no place in Ireland and I am pro agreement.
It really is none of your business what has a place in Ireland - I don't tell you how Britain should be run. You should only concern yourself with understanding this: there is no place for a union jack here except in the compound of the embassy; you are not welcome here except as visitorsI apologise if I sounded "arrogant"
Accepted.
, as I have already stated , have seen enough of what * produced
What is *?
Do "Trolls" usually make an apology , funny never saw one do it , you might just be wrong ?
It can always be an effective ploy - I'm not saying it is in your case.
Have taken a quick look at the links.
Very techanical , more so than a lay man can quickly read and come up with an opinion.
Yes, that stuff requires long study
A few questions still give me problems, the higher concentrations need to delouse and why did Irving not call this man ?
Irving is a problem for a start. I must say that I can not figure him out on that or on anything. There are some who beleive that he is some kind of fifth columnist to discredit revisionism. I dont know myself but he has a habit of shooting himself in the foot.
If its as simple as it sounds , its a winner he failed to play.
That's what it makes it all so perplexing. I will look into that question and get back to you.
You can't deny something which did not happen can you ?
That's right, which is why the term 'holocaust denier' or 'holocaust denial' is a rhetorical term like 'terrorist'. It exploits the ambiguity in the word 'deny' by insinuating that revisionists secretly believe in the holocasut but are trying to destroy belief in it to ressurect anti-semitism or Nazism. Before you say anything conisder what I have said before. When the H crumbles into dust ( my situation) the Jews do not emerge smelling of roses. Nazism emerges as less than evil incarnate which makes a more sober assessment possible. Since losing belief in the H I am able to see that there was much that was good in the NS project especially for the ordinary people and some things I would defintely not endorse, like the biologism.
Techanical as it is a firm expert examination of the content is required.
That is why I posted both sides of the argument for you. Also this chemical evidence only makes sense when it is used ijn conjunction with all the other evidence; testimonies, documentary, and archaeological.
I remain unconvinced and as i said to you before the holocaust was much more than gas chambers , and no I don't deny their being and the mass gassing at Auschwitz.
The only thing I could realistically ask of anyone - especially when they have seen how shaky the evdience is (as you have) - is to keep an open mind, to be sceptical in the literal sense of the word (GK. skepsis - inquiry)
Having seen IHR website I wondered where they got the name " Prussian Blue " from , those two teenage girls who would sing inspirational songs.
Sick name for a teenage duo if you ask me.
I'm not familiar with this, have you a url?

[quote]"Prussian Blue "

Prussian blue is also just the name of a color--the color of "Blausaure", but without necessarily any toxic implications.

[quote]"Prussian Blue "Prussian blue is also just the name of a color--the color of "Blausaure", but without necessarily any toxic implications.
'Blausaure' means literally 'blue acid' or pure HCN and would have toxic implications. This all arises as a result of Kurt Gerstein's testimony where he talks about this, as if he is transporting bottles of pure HCN around the countryside! Apart from being sheer madness this would also be impossible because the flasks he describes would be eaten away in short order and half of Eastern Europe would have been poisoned!

Reinhold, as I said I have a home both in ireland and work 50/50 in UK.
As far it being none of my buisness you could not be more wrong.
The * refers to dead , dying, and crippled. ( Both physical and mentally).
Armed struggle solved nothing , some would say that without it the agreement would never have been.
I keep an open mind on that , ignorance and indroctrinated bigotery have a lot to do with it.
As far as the people who you say are a british responsibility , they have in the main been here for more than 3-4 generations and whilst they have a british identity are part of the place.
Dialogue and co-operation to build trust is the only long term way forward.
The gun has had its day and Omagh was not the first bomb to do this , there have been many in the past 30 years.
When I hear the term " armed struggle" for me its an echo of times past which cannot be part of times to come.
You can now understand where I come from and when you say it has nothing to do with me , fuel on a fire. ( I feel insulted then , BTW the "Brit" identity does not fit , this caused further annoyance).

Yes the science quoted does desreve to be looked at.
I am not confident that it will stand up to expert examination , I suspect that irving may have felt similar and may have been influenced by this in his decision to set it aside.
You may not agree but it is the only logical explaination I can think of.
Irving is on record as saying that he sees his defeat as being no reason why he should not go on denying the holocaust.
had he included the report it would have been a good thing.
The defense team would have to have gone all out to take it apart , which after having thrown over a million pounds on the fire would have been content to have done the same again.
They would have recruited experts to demolish , discredit and refute it.
Now the basis for an the expert examination of this Rudolf does exist , unfortunately any which has been or may be done will be seen only as lies.
"Catch -22" will continue.

Armed struggle solved nothing , some would say that without it the agreement would never have been.
Are you a pacifist? Do you deny people the right to take up arms in defense of their country etc?
As far as the people who you say are a british responsibility , they have in the main been here for more than 3-4 generations and whilst they have a british identity are part of the place.
The plantation of Ulster began in the 17th century. Its express puprose was to break the resistance of the Irish - Ulster was the stronghold and resistance. It was also the land of the O'Neills who were the most powerful clans in the country. Hugh O'Neill almost became king of a united Ireland - there were even coins struck at Rome commemorating (a bit premature!) his coronation as king of Ireland!
Defeating Ireland depended on shattering Ulster and planitng it with aliens. My view is very simple; they are very welcome to stay but British rule must end.
When I hear the term " armed struggle" for me its an echo of times past which cannot be part of times to come.
And as it will be in the future, until the union jack flies only at the embassy.
You can now understand where I come from and when you say it has nothing to do with me , fuel on a fire. ( I feel insulted then , BTW the "Brit" identity does not fit , this caused further annoyance).
I don't see where you are coming from. As far as I can gather, you are a British guy who entertains good intentions. But you must understand, that is a classic piece of colonialist thinking, it is rather patronising. The hardest thing for coloniser to understand is the simple message that he is just not welcome.
Yes the science quoted does desreve to be looked at.
I am not confident that it will stand up to expert examination
But that is precisely why I posted Dr. Green's contribution; he is the holocosters' expert on this, and he does not establish their case. The significance of the chemsitry is not that it disproves the gas chambers end of story but that it disproves the mass of testimonies and claims. The holocosters - the mor ehonest ones - largely accept the problem posed by chemistry and have reduced the number of witnesses they are prepared to taek seriously down to basically Kula and his mesh insertion towers. But then look at the problems that has created!
I suspect that irving may have felt similar and may have been influenced by this in his decision to set it aside.
You may not agree but it is the only logical explaination I can think of.
That is logical on one view. However, the reason may not be logical. On the other hand those who suspect fifth columnist activity . . .
Its something I am going to look at more closely.
Irving is on record as saying that he sees his defeat as being no reason why he should not go on denying the holocaust.
Except that he does not "deny the holocost." He believes in the possibility of some limited gassings and he buys the mass shootings, more or less. This approach is sometimes called 'Holocaust Lite' or 'salami revisionism' - both approaches I find mistaken and even dishonest. Some people believe that he has taken this line to recover his reputation but that must be quite hopeless. All in all, I find Irving's behaviour in this and in other things odd in the extreme.
had he included the report it would have been a good thing.
I wholeheartedly agree.
The defense team would have to have gone all out to take it apart , which after having thrown over a million pounds on the fire would have been content to have done the same again.
They would have recruited experts to demolish , discredit and refute it.
Which would not have proved anything except the cleverness of lawyers, remember the OJ trial? A courtroom is really the last place where historiographical question can be resolved. The historian should be about establishing the truth, lawyers are about winning: two very different aims.
Now the basis for an the expert examination of this Rudolf does exist , unfortunately any which has been or may be done will be seen only as lies.
Well, I dont think much of Dr. Green's attempts in this respect.

Reinhold , the penny has not dropped yet / I was born in there.
I do not see myelf as a colonial nor as a British guy who harbours good intentions.
I take it reinhold that you live in "the south" and have apart from what you have seen via TV and the press have not seen what bombs and bullets do up close and the effects of 30 years of " armed struggle" , as waged by both "loyalists" and "republicans".
When you can tell me that you have seen people's blood run into the gutter and say that it was worth it .........well I can tell you it was not.
There is a lot of baggage being carried which will not be easily set aside and a hidden cost which will be with us for sometime to come.
There are no winners in what amounts to a civil war , only losers.
I agree that the irving angle is starnge if he had a winner in his corner and failed to play it.
He is out over £1,500,000 plus interest which he will never be able to pay.
For David Irving the whole episode has been a disaster and for his family I cannot begin to imagine the cost in very way.

I can only conclude that you idea that irving is a " 5th Col. " is paranoid in the extreme , it is a great regret that the defense team did not have to pull in expert opinion on the "Rudolf Report."
To discredit it they would have to deal in facts and what could be proved and what it could not prove , lawyers may be able to box clever but a judge demands facts not opinion.
I fear the Irving was trying to protect the report from examination or perhaps doubted it himself or lack full confidence in it.
If it is watertight , he would have won his case hands down and be several million in pocket.
He had everything to gain and had most to lose. £1,500,000 is a big , big loss.
I can only conclude that he had reason not to use it , other than that it was his ace in the hole.
OJ "Clever lawyers" ?
No , incompetent policemen.

Reinhold , the penny has not dropped yet / I was born in there.
So? I feel an Arthur Wellsley quote coming on!
I do not see myelf as a colonial nor as a British guy who harbours good intentions.
What do you see yourself as then?
I take it reinhold that you live in "the south" and have apart from what you have seen via TV and the press
That is both presumptuous and patronising.
have not seen what bombs and bullets do up close and the effects of 30 years of " armed struggle" , as waged by both "loyalists" and "republicans".
More of your assumptions.
When you can tell me that you have seen people's blood run into the gutter and say that it was worth it .........well I can tell you it was not.
At no point have I said that war is good. In fact earlier on I quoted Sherman, "War is hell", short and to the point. And yes, I have seen war up close - and far worse than what was happening in the north. You are missing the point of all this.
I asked you a question which you have avoided: are you a pacifist?
There is a lot of baggage being carried which will not be easily set aside and a hidden cost which will be with us for sometime to come.
That's right, that's all part of the 'war is hell' bit.
There are no winners in what amounts to a civil war , only losers.
It is not a civil war - it is merely the latest installment of the long running war to rid this island of the Norman then English then British presence complicated by an ethnic conflict dimension implanted there by the English when they put the Planters there: they bear the responsibility for that conflict as both sides , orange and green, will tell you. And I tell you this, it will not end until that goal is achieved; surely you know that? It has gone on for centuries, and much worse than the last thirty years at times - the Elizabethan campaigns, the Williamite wars, the 18th century of penal laws etc, the Famine.
I agree that the irving angle is starnge if he had a winner in his corner and failed to play it.
He is out over £1,500,000 plus interest which he will never be able to pay.
For David Irving the whole episode has been a disaster and for his family I cannot begin to imagine the cost in very way.
He does have a history of litigomania. I know someone like that. They are caught up in endless litigations which have been ruinous and disasterous for their family. I see it as little different from what gambling addicts do.
I can only conclude that you idea that irving is a " 5th Col. " is paranoid in the extreme , it is a great regret that the defense team did not have to pull in expert opinion on the "Rudolf Report."
Its not my idea as I said on each ocassion that I mentioned it. Its an idea out there and I said that the jury was out for me. Why do you try to misrepresent me in this way?
To discredit it they would have to deal in facts and what could be proved and what it could not prove , lawyers may be able to box clever but a judge demands facts not opinion.
You should look at the transcripts!
I fear the Irving was trying to protect the report from examination or perhaps doubted it himself or lack full confidence in it.
Which is it to be now that you are in pure speculation mode?
If it is watertight , he would have won his case hands down and be several million in pocket.
If he has lost all his money and is in debt - how does he pay for his jet set lifestyle?
OJ "Clever lawyers" ?
No , incompetent policemen.
No, they were not incompetent, they were made to look so. When you have a team of the most highly paid lawyers like that, they can pick holes in any case - that is why they are so highly paid!

Misrepresenting, see your point and withdraw it , was not my intention , those who see irving as such have taken leave of their reasoning ability.
How did George Best afford it , someone else is paying.
When his Mayfair flat was taken from him , well no matter what I think ist a hateful thing to have happen and I feel for the poor man and his family.

Reinhold , I see little sense in going back 900 years and blaming people alive today for the policy adopted by long dead Kings and Queens.
Williamite wars had more to do with European Politics than anyting which is celebrated on 12th July.

BTW I don't attend such events and just look forward to their being over, they mean nothing to me.
As far as patronising goes if I knew what part of Ireland you were in I would identify it . "North" and "South" perhaps mean more to you than they do to me .
Pacifist. No i did not ignore it , I just didn't answer it .
I see no winners in a civil war , for that is what it was, a dirty little war, which when the history of europe is written will get but a few lines , and for all that the cost will be hugely understated.
Reinhold no winners , only losers.
My assumptions I feel are true, the term "armed struggle" is a romantic term PC political catch phrase which conveys nothing of the cost or reality of conflict.
It may cause you some offense but from one person born on this Island to another , you don't understand either the nature or cost of the past 30 years.
If you have not yet bought it reinhold .
Buy "Lost Lives" , you will see something of the cost in those pages .
You will not see the tears shed nor see children grow up with out a parrent or parrents grow old , tier years puntuated by visits to the graves of their children , you will not see people who have been conditioned to hate without thought or the pain which that causes and thr ignorance odf those who hate who cannot see what they do or understand it.
You will not see the pain of those mutilated in mind or body and you will not see the exodus of those who left rather than see this country as their future.
You will not see the trouble endured by those of us who have refused to be drawn into hatred.
Reinhold there are no winners and reaching back for a solution and to justify what has been done , no matter what flag you wave or what colour you want to paint the kerb stones will solve nothing.

Reinhold , I see little sense in going back 900 years and blaming people alive today for the policy adopted by long dead Kings and Queens.
Do you not understand that both the present and the future is shaped by the past? The offending party always wants the offended party to forget. When the offense is resolved then we will forget it.
Pacifist. No i did not ignore it , I just didn't answer it .
So as to avoid contradicting yourself, yes?
I see no winners in a civil war , for that is what it was, a dirty little war, which when the history of europe is written will get but a few lines , and for all that the cost will be hugely understated.
Its not a civil war.
My assumptions I feel are true,
What anyone "feels" does not establish the truth or falsity of anything.
the term "armed struggle" is a romantic term PC political catch phrase which conveys nothing of the cost or reality of conflict.
Except that is what it is called by those who see it as such, the other option is to call it "terrorism"; it all depends on which side you are on.
It may cause you some offense but from one person born on this Island to another , you don't understand either the nature or cost of the past 30 years.
If you have not yet bought it reinhold .
I understand more than you ever will.
snip sermonising.

Reinhold,
Going back 900 years or even 400 years or 300 years and saying this all has to be sorted out before we can have peace on this Island is daft.
Norman invasion , Williamite war , Wolfe Tone , French troops etc , catch a grip.

We can't change the past , we can only try and learn from it , we cannot revist it today and fight old battles again , and again etc.
Would you have Britain take issue with Italy for the roam invasion or Norway and denmark for the Vikings ?
Perhaps Gb should delcare war on France and blame the dead "Boney" ?
"Armed Struggle" you know little about it in real terms Reinhold the propaganda is easy to swallow and has little bearing on today.
Civil war , mix that up with an " Armed Strugle" against "England" and extortion , money making rackets run by paramilitary groups , tit for tat killings , no warning bombs , a murder a day almost and you are getting there.
You have not seen all this at first hand , or have you , I mean in more real terms than the 6.00pm news ?
You know at its worst Reinhold a mans death rated 304 mintues one day , his funneral was reported 3 days later say 2 minutes and then he was forgotten , only his family would remember. Everyone else forgot.
Can you name me ten civilians who died in " the troubles" , did you know any of them ?

Reinhold , this desire to settle old scores running back 900 years and your desire to endorse "armed Struggle" has no place in Ireland today , not unless you want to spend the next 900 years fighting as well.
I see no winners from the past 30 years , not one.
Pacifist no , do I think civil war is a good thing and that its something to almost delight in , no.
You believe too much the propaganda and believe me all sides are good at it , did you see that book "Lost Lives" yet.
If you have not read it and then reflect on what the true cost of the past 30 years was , to those who lost loved ones and had their lives destroyed by it.
It does not sit well with such romantic cries as " For God and Ulster" , " No Surrender" or "Ireland unfree shall never be at Peace".
Whole thing makes me sick Reinhold. That is the bottom line.

Going back 900 years or even 400 years or 300 years and saying this all has to be sorted out before we can have peace on this Island is daft.
Norman invasion , Williamite war , Wolfe Tone , French troops etc , catch a grip.
I didnt say that. I said that the past produces the present, and by extension the future.
We can't change the past , we can only try and learn from it , we cannot revist it today and fight old battles again , and again etc.
We can change the future though.
"Armed Struggle" you know little about it in real terms Reinhold the propaganda is easy to swallow and has little bearing on today.
There you go again with your patronising nonsense.
Pacifist no , do I think civil war is a good thing and that its something to almost delight in , no.
As I said, it is not a civil war.
Who is delighting in any of this here?
You believe too much the propaganda
Falling back into insult . . .

"When the offense is resolved then we will forget it."
Seems like wanting to dig up the past , how far do you go back for this offense ?
Past shaping the future , as long as you don't let the past become your present and your future both.
Patronising , no , propaganda is easy to swallow when you want to believe it.
When I hear the same old sound bites I can't help but think that some people do actually find some purpose in it .
I make no apology for being sickened by garbage like " God and Ulster" or
"Armed Struggle" propaganada and self serving sound bites.

"When the offense is resolved then we will forget it."
Seems like wanting to dig up the past , how far do you go back for this offense ?
I'm talking about the future.
Past shaping the future , as long as you don't let the past become your present and your future both.
The past determines the future, for, the 'makers ' of the future are formed by the past.
Patronising , no , propaganda is easy to swallow when you want to believe it.
So speaks the voice of experience - you have swallowed a lot of propaganda.

Reinhold,
I know the difference , do you ?
The past may have some influence , but it does not shape it , people with postive constructive ideas do.
People who find it easier to wave flags , repeat slogans , sound bites and play to the ignorant tend not to have so many good ideas or the ability to shape much.

People who find it easier to wave flags , repeat slogans , sound bites and play to the ignorant tend not to have so many good ideas or the ability to shape much.
Which rather describes what you do when you repeat the black and white Manichaean version of WWII.

Anyone care to debate specific points that they think is credible about the so-called 'holocaust'?

-k0nsl

Anyone care to debate specific points that they think is credible about the so-called 'holocaust'?

-k0nsl
That's what I keep asking but no-one does.

We should challenge these Believers and ask them to state their best case for the alleged 'gas chambers'.

-k0nsl

Reinhold,
The B&W version of WW2 , stiff upper lip heros , "chin up old chap see off the Jerry etc" you can take with a pinch of salt.
You want more than history , you want to re-write hirtory in a way which perverts fact and gives absolution to Adolf Hitler and the Goverment he led.
Anyone's fault but Hitlers, no holocaust , no racial agenda , no war crimes except those carried out by the Allies.
Hitler Goverment free from any link to aggression of any kind and from any abuse of those they occupied.
Reinhold , it won't be happening.
You say I am "anti-german" , not so , I am certainly not going to subscribe to what you seek which is propaganda more than history.
As far as selective discussion of the holocaust goes , when you say nothing criminal took place at Auschwitz and subscribe to the need to look at the Holocaust in an anti-semetic way , e.g. Jews made to scrub streets is not criminal or degrading.

Catch a grip , objective , even handed and balanced , not on your agenda that much is clear.

I have no problem with history being reviewed but what you ask is totally selective , what you want is propaganda.
Have it if you wish but you are a member of a true minority group , the deluded.

We should challenge these Believers and ask them to state their best case for the alleged 'gas chambers'.

-k0nsl
That would be a lot of fun :D

I have no problem with history being reviewed but what you ask is totally selective , what you want is propaganda.
Have it if you wish but you are a member of a true minority group , the deluded.

So, cerberus, what do you Believe in? Please be specific.

You want more than history , you want to re-write hirtory in a way which perverts fact and gives absolution to Adolf Hitler and the Goverment he led.
You seem to have an irresistable urge to misrepresent me. Why do you do that?
Anyone's fault but Hitlers, no holocaust , no racial agenda , no war crimes except those carried out by the Allies.
Prove the holocaust, i.e. gas chambers; no racial agenda? Now you are being grossly dishonest - I have never denied that the NSDAP state had an anti-Jewish policy. War crimes are to be defined according to the Hague and Geneva conventions - I have asked you to produce evidence of those and we can discuss them - you shy away from that because it would entail examining allied war crimes - and you don't want to go there. Your position is very hypocritical.
Hitler Goverment free from any link to aggression of any kind and from any abuse of those they occupied.
You go too far. Produce my statements to that effect.
You say I am "anti-german" , not so , I am certainly not going to subscribe to what you seek which is propaganda more than history.
You are so anti-German you don't even realise it. You display every single anti-German prejudice in the book!
As far as selective discussion of the holocaust goes , when you say nothing criminal took place at Auschwitz and subscribe to the need to look at the Holocaust in an anti-semetic way , e.g. Jews made to scrub streets is not criminal or degrading.
I'm still waiting for you to produce evidence of homocidal gas chambers.
Catch a grip , objective , even handed and balanced , not on your agenda that much is clear.
Objectivity is precisely what enables you to see through the fog of allied propaganda.

Reinhold,
I have no Anti-German agenda nor do I misrepresent you,
Previous discussion has shown you to be firmly entrenched in the view that war crimes were not carried out by Axis forces and that nothing illegal took place .
You can explain away as a matter of fact and as being very reasonable any and all criminal acts which were carried out by the SS and the Hitler Goverment / Axis Forces.
From Auschwitz to Oradour no crime.
Your greatest consession is that Hitler had by way of policy anti- Jewsish laws which you see as being quite reasonable as the jews were getting their just deserts.

I see no reason to question that the racial policies persued by the Hitler Goverment led to what is called th holocaust and that the Wansee Conference which Eichmann later described at his trial in Israel augmeneted the killings which had already taken place and set in train the extermination of those who did not fit in with the racial policy and political / social agenda as per A.H. Goverment.

Allied war crimes , I don't pretend that they did not occur.
On threads by Dr. Brandt I did not condone them.
Your position regarding war crimes as per Axis forces is what ?
You evidently believe that War Crimes Trials were a set up and it was illegal .
You deny that the holocaust ever took place , nothing illegal took place at Auschwitz , people were paid , they had recreation facalities , swiming pool , football fields , good health care .
Hans Christian Anderson could not have written a better fairy tale.
This is the Gulf betwen what history has recorded with a balanced hand and what you would wish to see as accepted.
Such a contrasts to being made to scrub streets or have your business stolen or to be branded with the star of David or made live in Jew only areas, or be the subject of movies like the Eternal jew , which you think should be remnade and expanded upon.
To be deported to labour camps and exterminated.
You say that the prisoners asked to be taken east by the Germans.
No killlings in the east , the Special Action groups killed only partisans, no murders.
Lidice , Oradour , the blank cheque to kill at will in the east.
The theft of private property from people in lands occupied, slave labour , making money out of slave labour , medical experiments, all so many lies.
You are quick to sacrifice Albert Speer , who is denounced as a traitor , you are less quick to say that he served by way of his industry the Fuhrer and his goverment and to identify those who estiblished slave labour on the farm and factory.
This huge conspiracy theory of international proportions involving so many , the destruction of German , didn't do a very good job did they ?

Reinhold you seek to put the NSDAP through "Rehab." look you are wasting your time, the truth is out .
The more you look at the NSDAP state the more rotten and vile its values appear.
These values come from Hitler who set the standard and defined what principles his goverment would work by.
No , sell it to someone else , my hand stays in my pocket.

I have no Anti-German agenda nor do I misrepresent you,
Previous discussion has shown you to be firmly entrenched in the view that war crimes were not carried out by Axis forces and that nothing illegal took place .
That is your misrepresentation. I dsipute the existence of homicidal gas chambers/gas vans/mass shootings of people simply because they were Jews as part of a policy of extermination - that is what I dispute. Get it right please.
You can explain away as a matter of fact and as being very reasonable any and all criminal acts which were carried out by the SS and the Hitler Goverment / Axis Forces.
War crimes are a different matter. Do you even know what war crimes are as defined by Geneva and Hague at the time?

Your greatest consession is that Hitler had by way of policy anti- Jewsish laws which you see as being quite reasonable as the jews were getting their just deserts.
That's not a 'concession', it is recognition of historical facts.
I see no reason to question that the racial policies persued by the Hitler Goverment led to what is called th holocaust and that the Wansee
You see no reason? You have been presented with very good reasons here as to why there are serious problems with the official holocaust story. Some of the evidence you even presented and I showed you precisely what the problems were. The very least a reasonable person would do is to become sceptical. You simply chooose to ignore all that. Thisi is your anti-German and irrational stance showing through.
Conference which Eichmann later described at his trial in Israel augmeneted
Eichmann said a lot of things. Do you know how his memory was helped along? The Israelis gave him copies of various books by holocosters to 'jog' his memory!
"Eichmann pleaded not guilty in Jerusalem. In fact he pleaded in exactly the same manner as Goring at Nuremberg: Not guilty in the sense of the indictment. Dr. Servatius, Eichmann's attorney who was paid for by the State of Israel, told the press that Eichmann felt "guilty before God but not before the law."

"The story of six million Jews exterminated during the war was given final authority at the Nuremberg Trials by the statement of Dr. Wilhelm Hoettl. He had been an assistant of Eichmann's, but was in fact a rather strange person in the service of American Intelligence who had written several books under the pseudonym of Walter Hagen. Hoettl also worked for Soviet espionage, collaborating with two Jewish emigrants from Vienna, Perger and Verber, who acted as U.S. officers during the preliminary inquiries of the Nuremberg Trials.
It is remarkable that the testimony of this highly dubious person Hoettl is said to constitute the only "proof' regarding the murder of six million Jews. In his affidavit of November 26th, 1945 he stated, not that he knew but that Eichmann had "told him" in August 1944 in Budapest that a total of 6 million Jews had been exterminated.
Needless to say, Eichmann never corroborated this claim at his trial. Hoettl was working as an American spy during the whole of the latter period of the war, and it is therefore very odd indeed that he never gave the slightest hint to the Americans of a policy to murder Jews, even though he worked directly under Heydrich and Eichmann."
"Hoettl later confided in a published letter that the '6,000,000' account was a lie....which he had claimed to have heard from Eichmann."
and
Tom Segrev, Jewish reporter:
"The government of Israel has always been afraid that the Eichmann book would compete with the verdict of the court"

"After Gideon Hausner, the prosecutor in the Eichmann trial, cautioned that publication of the memoirs could compete with the verdict, Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion ordered the manuscript locked away for 15 years at which time that decision would be reviewed. "But the decision was not reviewed and the document continued to remain under lock.

Eichmann refers to some sketches and diagrams. One of the diagrams outlines the Gestapo hierarchy with Eichmann being near the bottom."
Various contributions to an Eichmann thread at
http://www.yourforum.org/revforum/viewtopic.php?t=656&highlight=eichmann
Just for starters. Much more can be said about Eichmann.
Do you actually regard what happened in Jerusalem as a trial in any proper sense of the word?
Allied war crimes , I don't pretend that they did not occur.
You dont want to talk about them though,do you?
Your position regarding war crimes as per Axis forces is what ?
Lay it out here in detail.
You evidently believe that War Crimes Trials were a set up and it was illegal .
Show me the legal basis for Nuremberg - you will seek in vain.
You deny that the holocaust ever took place
In the sense defined above.
, nothing illegal took place at Auschwitz
In the sense defined above.
, people were paid ,
The voluntary workers were - do you deny that?
they had recreation facalities , swiming pool , football fields , good health care .
That is easily proved.
This is the Gulf betwen what history has recorded with a balanced hand and what you would wish to see as accepted.
Your cynicism knows no depths. You cynically lie here now, after being shown some evidence - most reluctantly as you claimed not to be interested, and you continue to distort and misrepresent my words. I have repeatedly told you that unless you are prepared to look and discuss the evidence I am not interested in this kind of idiotic exchange.
Such a contrasts to being made to scrub streets or have your business stolen or to be branded with the star of David or made live in Jew only areas, or be the subject of movies like the Eternal jew , which you think should be remnade and expanded upon.
Don't you know a damn thing about the Jews or about history?
To be deported to labour camps and exterminated.
Prove that they were exterminated. If it an established fact you should have no difficulty - why have you not done so? How long have I been asking you to that? Still no proof.
You say that the prisoners asked to be taken east by the Germans.
No I didnt. Are you lying again or what? I said they were given a choice - the source for this? Elie Wiesel.
No killlings in the east , the Special Action groups killed only partisans, no murders.
Do you realise the extent of partisan activities in the east (illegal by the way)? Can you prove any of those mass shootings alleged by the holocaust industry?
Lidice , Oradour , the blank cheque to kill at will in the east.
What balnk cheque? Have you discovered an order to kill Jews simply because they were Jews?
The theft of private property from people in lands occupied, slave labour , making money out of slave labour , medical experiments, all so many lies.
Most of it.
You are quick to sacrifice Albert Speer
I dont sacrifice him - he lied and betrayed to save his neck.
This huge conspiracy theory of international proportions involving so many , the destruction of German , didn't do a very good job did they ?
Its not huge. If you bothered to read what I say rather than twisting my words and now, it seems, lying you would see.
The more you look at the NSDAP state the more rotten and vile its values appear.
The more I read from you the more disgusted I become.
No , sell it to someone else , my hand stays in my pocket
Yes, playing with yourself!
---
Unless you are prepared to have a proper discussion of the so-called holocaust based on the evidence, there is no point in going on with this. It is a waste of time. Put up or shut up.

cerberus, Please post what you specifically Believe in and what you specifically Believe to be credible about the orthodox 'Holocaust' story.

-k0nsl

:) Reinhold I don't care if I go blind I will sell matches :)

:) Reinhold I don't care if I go blind I will sell matches :)
You're already blind.

Need a light ?