Found this today.
Kershaws "Nemesis 1936-45".
From what Ian Kershaw states in Chapter 6 of his book the advances in medical care mentioned quoted in the "old phora" were accompanied by medical ethics going into the gutter.
Pages 235-261 make intersting if not disturbing reading.

Against a background of spending cuts inthe care of the mentally ill / handicaped in the early 1930's he states :
" Above all , Hitler's role was decisive in 1938-9 in providing approval for every step that extended into full " euthanasia" programme from autumn of 1939 onwards. Without that approval , it is plain , and without the ideological drive that he embodied, there would have been no " euthanasia action".

He points out that this move towards the killing of the sick and disabled was not a creation of Hitlers , there had been some thinking in the "depression years" that money spend on their care could have been better used.

"the dictatorship had provided licence to the medical and psychiatric profession after 1933 to think the unthinkable. Minority views in a failing democracy could now become mainstream.
The process gathered pace. By 1939 doctors and Nurses attached to the assylums were aware of what was required. So was the medical bureaucracy which oiled the the wheels of the killing machineery. The climate of opinion among the general public was by the time also not unfavourable. Though there were strong feelings against the euthanasia , particularly among those attached to the churches , others were in favour-notably it seems, in the case of mentally ill or disabled children- or at least passively prepared to accept it. Finally , but not least , the point at which, coinciding with the outbreak of war , a secret programme of mass murder could be implemented would have been imaginable without the PROGRESSIVE EROSION OF LEGALITY and the disintegeration of formal structures of goverment that had taken place since 1933."
"Hitler had given a strong indication of his own thought on how to deal with the incruably ill in Mein Kampf , where he adovcated their sterilization."
"If necessary , the incurably sick will be pitilessly segregated ..."
"If Germany were to have a million children per year " he declared " and do away with (beseitigen) 700-800,000 of the ewakest of them , the results would finally be perhaps even a rise in strength.
According to the comments of his doctor karl brandt , in his post war trial , Hitler was known to favour involuntary eutanasia at the latest from 1933 onwards."
Fear of popular opinion and the reaction from the Church prevented its introduction at that time.

Leader of the "Reichs Doctors was urging a lw which allowed them to bring about " destruction of life not worth living" Hitler told him he would take up and carry out the questions of euthanasia in the event of war".
He was 2 of the opinion that such a problem could be more smoothly and easily carried out in war".
He intended therefore " in the event of a war radically to solve the problem of the mental asylums".
Films were made for showing in germany's cinemas five films were made in 1936. Hitler liked one in particular "Erbkrank" (Hereditarily Ill) he commissioned another "Opfer der Vergangenheit" ( Victims of the past) , it was shown in all Germany's cinemas in 1937.
( Reminds me of other uses of the cinema to mold public opinion and prepare the way for other acts of progress..." The Eternal Jew" comes readily to mind.)

1936 Churchs FORCED to place any patients in their care to state care,the stage was set.

The Karl Brandt's act of " euthanasia" ( murder would be a better defination) of a child in Leipzig in 1939 , if family , doctors and Brandt were in agreement the childs life would be ended.
This took place and Hitlers verbal authorisation to deal with similar cases in the same manner followed.
Brandt was central in the killing of handicaped children and set up a scheme to cover his tracka and sanatise his actions , he employed doctors he knew to be sympathetic to his "work".
"Reichs Committee for the Scientific Registration of Serious hereditary and Congential Suffering".
Between 5,000-8,000 children are estimated to have been put to death , mostly with injections of the barbiturate luminal under the driection of this pseudo scientific body.
Not to put to fine a point on it , this was murder , murder with the knowledge and consent of the Fuhrer. So much at odds with his oath of office to work in the interests of the German people and to up hold their rights.
these children it seems did not have the right to life , thestate denied it to them and the law turned a blind eye to it , an eye which the goverment had put out.

T4 as it was known happened it is a fact it is not some piece of Allied propaganda , the russians did not make it up nor did the Jews have a hand in it. It cannot be denied nor can it be explained away.
T4 was halted in in August 1941.
It is estimated that between 70,000-90,000 patients , children died at the hands of these doctors under the direction of Dr. Karl Brandt.
This happened not in Africa but in Europe , and not very long ago.
This figure does not include the mentally ill , Kershaw is of the opinion that this figure may well be double that of the children murdered.
If it was even 50% of the number of the children killed it is evil beyond description.
It has been said that if its legal its not a crime , I leave you to make up your own mind on that one.
When you rad Dr. Brandts signature " Taking care of Idiots since 1939 "
Just be certain that you know that these idiots were children , murdered by the Goverment of the day.
Light hearted it may seem but the terrible truth is well known.
Denial is everything , truth is the victim

Does someone pay you to sit around and wring your hands over events that happened 65 years ago?

Does someone pay you to sit around and wring your hands over events that happened 65 years ago?

Hey, alot of cool things happened 65 years ago :D To bad they did not last :(

In a word , No .

If you had a handicaped son or daughter in 1939-45 Germany you might have thought different.
Or if your son or daughter had a minor disability and you were told , for the good of the nation your child not be having children , you might view things differently.

Steamship has a point nothing to be gained from hand wringing but we live in a world in which things like this do happen again.
China springs to mind , again a one party state in which individual rights are suppressed and the law can be made to serve the state and not the people.

If you had a handicaped son or daughter in 1939-45 Germany you might have thought different.

Tell that to the sons and daughters of Hiroshima and Nagasaki who were vaporized in 1945. At least atomic bombs don't discriminate between handicapped and healthy, I suppose. You have ZERO ground to stand on when it comes to criticizing the Axis. I wish your sort would shut up already.

Personally, I believe that euthanizing the mentally handicapped is the most humane thing to do (from what I know, this was the extent of Nazi "euthanasia" - the tales of euthanizing people for having club feet, a hunched back, or cleft palates are pure propaganda - even Goebbels was a club foot!). If given the choice between being dead and being so severely retarded that I could not take care of myself (or even be a sentient being), I would prefer death. I suspect that most people would do the same. Furthermore, the only situation where I would permit abortion (at least among whites) is in cases where the child will be born severely retarded.

If anything, it is today's medical system that keeps braindead human vegetables alive indefinitely which is cruel and barbaric. Our society treats dogs better than people: a chronically/terminally ill dog is usually put out of its misery by its owners, while the law dictates that the vegetative and severely retarded have to be kept alive indefinitely.

Personally, I believe that euthanizing the mentally handicapped is the most humane thing to do (from what I know, this was the extent of Nazi "euthanasia" - the tales of euthanizing people for having club feet, a hunched back, or cleft palates are pure propaganda - even Goebbels was a club foot!). If given the choice between being dead and being so severely retarded that I could not take care of myself (or even be a sentient being), I would prefer death. I suspect that most people would do the same. Furthermore, the only situation where I would permit abortion (at least among whites) is in cases where the child will be born severely retarded.

If anything, it is today's medical system that keeps braindead human vegetables alive indefinitely which is cruel and barbaric. Our society treats dogs better than people: a chronically/terminally ill dog is usually put out of its misery by its owners, while the law dictates that the vegetative and severely retarded have to be kept alive indefinitely.

I actually have a book from that Aera that explains the laws very detailed. did you know that there were Hitleryouth Groups for the Blind, Deaf and Mute?

Handicaped children were usualy sterelized and it was only done with the consent of the parents.
Hitler signed the "euthanasia" Order on 1st September 1939. His reasoning was, that it just cant be allowed that during War the healthy and fit are sent off to die in battle, while the retarded and useless were being pampered and fed in special homes.

... I wish your sort would shut up already.

It's the liberal mindset: so consumed with guilt they have to go projecting it on everybody else. And no they will never shut up. No man is free until all men are free...It's for the children...yada yada....

It's the liberal mindset: so consumed with guilt they have to go projecting it on everybody else. And no they will never shut up. No man is free until all men are free...It's for the children...yada yada....
A blackjack to the head helps. And no, I'm not advocating such a thing, just acknowledging its effectiveness. :D

Eugenics is necessary if we are to advance the breed. Whining leftists with no comprehension of human biology will not change this fact.

Eugenics is necessary if we are to advance the breed. Whining leftists with no comprehension of human biology will not change this fact.
I wonder how many of the whiners realize that most of the food on their dinner plates would not exist without eugenics. Neither would their pets. For that matter, neither would they in many cases.

Hell, nature herself is far crueler than any bipedal eugenicist.

Hey cerberus, what were you saying about *objective* historians again?

"However, evil is a theological or philosophical, rather than a historical, concept. To call Hitler evil may well be true and morally satisfying. But it explains nothing. And unanimity in condemnation is even potentially an outright barrier to understanding and explanation. As I hope the following chapters make abundantly plain, I personally find Hitler a detestable figure and despise all that his regime stood for."

Ian Kershaw, Hitler: 1936-45: Nemesis (New York and London: W.W. Norton & Company, 2001), p.xvii

Did the mute lads shout "H. H." ? ;)
The Whiners , as long as its a good year I would love a drop Miss O'G.
I don't mind being classed as a whiner if it does not mean excusing what was little more than murder by State policy.
As far as Der Fuhrer went this little experiment in racial purity does make the "holohoax" as you folks refer to it to be more than a little possible.
The track record existed before the first brick was laid at Auschwitz or Treblinka.
70,000 Germans killed at the hands of the Fuhrer and his faithful vassel Dr. Brandt , as I pointed out before his oath of office did not apply to these German citzens.
And you folks shout "Dresden" at every turn and corner.
Yes I have said it before Dresden was terrible it did nothing to shorten the war and it did not contribute anything to ending the war.
Yet its amazing how silent you are and how you can rationalise away the false morality of what is simply murder.
It seems that some can be quite happy having "Dr. Brandt taking care of idiots".
Do you honestly think feeding these people would make any difference between victory and defeat ?
A Goverment that would kill its own people on such a scale , people described as being lower than animals ?
Do you honestly think they would shrink from killing people from other races that they considered equally less worthy of life.
The track record was there before the first train left Germany for the east.

Hey cerberus, what were you saying about *objective* historians again?

"However, evil is a theological or philosophical, rather than a historical, concept. To call Hitler evil may well be true and morally satisfying. But it explains nothing. And unanimity in condemnation is even potentially an outright barrier to understanding and explanation. As I hope the following chapters make abundantly plain, I personally find Hitler a detestable figure and despise all that his regime stood for."

Ian Kershaw, Hitler: 1936-45: Nemesis (New York and London: W.W. Norton & Company, 2001), p.xvii

cerberus's posts remind me of Paul David Hewson, who treated us to such inane threads as "Hitler was mentally retarded" and "Hitler was gay." Cerberus is a little more sophisticated, but his general MO is more or less the same.

More of Kershaw's trash. In fact, this the first page to Kershaw's book Nemesis.

"The first part of this study, Hitler, 1889-1936: Hubris, tried to show how the people of a highly cultured, economically advanced, modern state could allow into power and entrust their fate to a political outsider with few, if any, special talents beyond undoubted skills as a demagogue and propagandist."

Ibid., p.xv

From Frederic Spotts on Kershaw and his lies:

"But even Fest and more recently Ian Kershaw have viewed Hitler basically an 'unperson'. In comparsion with Napoleon, Bismarck, Churchill and Kennedy, who were 'figures of substance outside their public lives', according to Kershaw, 'outside politics Hitler's life was largely void'. This is as misleading about Napoleon, Bismarck, Churchill and especially Kennedy as it is about Hitler. Hitler's interest in the arts was as intense as his racism; to disregard the one is as profound a distortion as to pass over the other."

Frederic Spotts, Hitler and the Power of Aesthetics (Woodstock and New York: The Overlook Press, 2004), p.xiii

More from Frederic Spotts book:

"Confronted by Modernism, art Bolshevism, cultural degeneracy and Jewish corruption of the arts, Hitler regarded himself not merely as Hans Sach's heil'ge deutsche Kunst but also, indeed, as the very guardian of Western civilization. Not simply guardian but also guide. 'For me politics is only the means to an end,' he told his intimates on more than one occasion. And that end had already been spelled out in Mein Kampf. 'I am convinced,' he had written there, 'that the work of great statesmen and military leaders always lies in the fild of art.' And since he further believed that the ultimate worth of a society and an era was to be judged by its cultural achievement, his mission was plain. By his accomplishments in the arts, he believed, would history judge him. Such was the lesson of the ancient world."

Ibid., p.28

:: Yet its amazing how silent you are and how you can rationalise away the false morality of what is simply murder.

Murder is ILLEGAL KILLING, cerberus. Do you understand that? Do you know anything whatsoever about law?

Cerberus:

When did I shout "Dresden"? I merely pointed out the hypocrisy inherent in your position. You condemn the Nazis for putting a few suffering people out of their misery. Yet you are curiously silent about Hiroshima and Nagasaki, or countless other acts of mass slaughter committed by the Allies. In the case of the atomic bombings of Japan, the suffering lingers on long after the actual event. Japanese children are still being born miserable, crippled by birth defects thanks to the "enlightened" policies of your side.

:: cerberus's posts remind me of Paul David Hewson, who treated us to such inane threads as "Hitler was mentally retarded" and "Hitler was gay." Cerberus is a little more sophisticated, but his general MO is more or less the same.

Someone delete these threads. Not even Potyondi makes crude arguments like those.

I have no problem with it Fade simply because Kershaw speaks the truth.
The German people deserved better than Hitler , he was a Pied Piper if ever there was.
Fade , I see you think this is pretty much in the same as "Hitler was Gay" or "Hitler was mentally ill".
I think I was pretty even handed in those threads as far as they went.
It would be interesting to follow the euthansaia on down the line to the point were had Hitler lived long enough that he might be presenting with fully blown parkinsons disease with all the emotional liability that it brings , would he then be delcared unfit for life or non contributing to the good of the nation and handed over to the tender care of Dr. Brandt and his cohorts ?
Might sem daft Fade but its the thick end of the wedge , when you go down that road where do you draw the line ?
interesting one isn't it , its a line we are all on , ducks in a row.
Wonder how in the brave "New Order" any of you might like to know that once you gets beyond a certain point your mother , father or yourself might be considered surplus to requirement and a waste of resources.
Forget previous service Iron Cross 1st class will get you nothing.

That sounds bloody hard but its the line that is being advocated when you endorse euthanasia as per Dr. Brandt./ Adolf Hitler.
Why stop with parents and children , could it have come to the push that the state would ask children to have their parents "looked after" when they reach a certain age or stage of their lives.
As far as Kershaw not being even handed to Hitler , from what I have read in his book he was , what you seem to foregt and minimise is that when you strip away all the flags , uniforms and trappings of Hitler and the Third Reich it was a very unpleasant place to be and Hitler was a very poor leader.
Now I realise I have now made myself about as popular as a horse butcher ina cavalary barracks but its simply true Hitler was everything that Kershaw found him to be and his opinion of Hitler was based on what he found.
Any man who would order and endorse anything like T4 , who would use murder as a political tool ( E.R./ Night of the Long Knives) has to be this.
What would you see as Hitlers redeeming traits as an individual ?
Looking at his track record on the rights of the German people I can only say they deserved better and fate treated them badly when Hilter made it into office.
I say again I am not a :jew: nor an I a left winger.
And as far as other races go I am just like Gunnery Sgt Hartmann in " Full Metal jacket" :D :222

I understand Fade that when you have a society in which the law serves the state first and not the rights of the individual citizen you have a situation where the state can make murder "legal" , it can do what it likes to whom it like , when and where it likes and there is nothing what can be done about it.
I can make it illegal to park on a double yellow line , no parking fine , execute the motorist , its the law officer. BANG!
Whats the problem its "legal" , making murder legal is not a get out of jail free card.
CAn you imagine walking into your Dotors surgery with a child taking your son or daughter by the hand and saying
" Doctor my son has Downs Syndrome , can you kill them for me please , where do I sign ?"
Forget the get out clause reagarding having a doctor being in agreement , the men adminustering this system of "care" would have no scruples or ethical problems in killing such a child , none at all.
The law serves the people , the citizen , its supposed to protect them not put the entire population on one enormous "At risk register".
That Fade is something which you use time and time again to get off the hook ,it could only hold water in Stalin's Russia , Pol Pot's Cambodia or Hitler's Germany.
Just a thought fade , did the "laws" which allowed T4 , did they go through the Reichstag , if so can you give me a date , number of votes for and against and in what form they were introducted ?
Failing this who made them legal and by what method did this occur.
Was the new "law" ever reported in the National Newspapers ?
Did any of the members vote against it or speak out against it , did any speak in favour of it ?
To me that is how laws are supposed to be passed especially one as far reaching on moral and ethical grounds as T4 was.
Is this a typical example of "Reich law" ?

When Churchll spoke of a "New dark age made even more protracted by the light of perverted science" he may have spoken with a degree of insight.
To me T4 reads as "the light of perverted science" and a leadership which was had lost touch with humanity.
Certainly a very dark chapter in social goverment and medical history.

Miss O'G. What can I say , you seem to have adopted the position for me when you assume that i must be "Allied to the hilt" and say that to drop the bombs was fully justified.
Again you assume and so so wrongly.
Hitler and the arts, it seems that the Goverment delcared what was or was not art.
PP worked in paris in WW2 his work was not to be shown, it was "not art".
The fine bronze studies of muscular young men with perfect bone structure drawing a sword to defend a poor lady working in a hay field or a man holding a pice of metal , the sweat of his labours to be seen by all.
This was art , this is a joke.
Hitler was an average artist , no special talent , he could not appreciate art.
This has all been said before.....as far as him being a "non person" , a mere object.
No he was a living breathing person , not someone I would like to know nor one I could trust but a non entity certainly not.

Hitler was an average artist , no special talent , he could not appreciate art.
How can you say these things and expect to be taken seriously?

Could anyone change the name of this thread? The word 'idiots' is misspelled and it looks stupid.

Have you ever seen Hitlers paintings ?
He copied most from postcards. An artist of moderate ability , his ability to appreciate was limited.
I could ask the obverse of you .
" How do you expect me to take you seriously when you say Hitler was a great artist ?" :D
Thing is Hitler , whatever he did , he though he was great at it , gifted.
Certainly he had the ability to speak in public , he could hold a crowd and could motivate people.
But he was also a great bluffer. His myth was well sustained.

Hitler though he was a great Statesman , a great soldier , a great general , a gifted architect , great artist , knew everything about being a vegeterian , great author , there was nothing he didn't know everything about.
A postive well of talent.
One thing he was not , a realist , one thing he certainly had , a huge ego.
To go back on track Miss O'G. what do you think of the medical advances of a State which would so bebase medical ethics that murder would become a State policy.
Fade said something about a book he had read which said that cancer was being seriously tackled , smoking and alcohol had been shown up to harmful and that great advances in helath care had been made.
This si against a backdrop of the medical services making themselves and instrument of murder and the leagal system being so much a slave of the state that it could do nothing to protect the most vunerable section of society .
Fade once told me " You know nothing of Reich law" , I am grateful I will never subject to it would be my reply , and so should you Fade.

Constantinus I apologise my keyboard skills are as bad as ever and will probably not , well they can't get any worse lets be honest :(

See what you mean. :o

Could anyone change the name of this thread? The word 'idiots' is misspelled and it looks stupid.

I changed it. The lil Troll was refering to my Signature and obviously trying to bait me.

Has anyone seen the German film from 1941 about euthanasia, 'Ich Klage An?

Dr. Brandt, you really should get that paranoia seen about.
If I had wanted to upcast your signature to you I would have had ample opportunity to do so before now , well and ample.
How did I come across this had to wait for 2 x girls to come from dentist , killed time reading .
Your signature even from the outset caused me some unease , to take something so inhuman and make a joke out of it .
You have often said that the " holohoax" never happened, its your precise value on human life which made it possible.
Your paranoia is unfounded , had I wanted to bait you ( as you have done me on more than one occasion) there has been ample opportunity which I have ignored.