No doubt at all in my mind.

Why do you think it was murder?

The initial autopsy, ordered by the allied powers indicated that he had died due to asphixiation by hanging (available here: http://www.rudolf-hess.org/english/archiv/obdukt1_e.php3?fs=8)

Hess's family ordered another autopsy, which was performed by Prof. Spann (here: http://www.rudolf-hess.org/english/archiv/obdukt2_e.php3?fs=8); the findings of that were that the injuries were not consistent with hanging, but rather with throttling.

The most visible sign are the marks on the back of the neck:
In point 14 of his affidavit from 25th January 1995, Prof. Spann wrote: "One can see from the photographs at exhibit "WS4" that this was clearly not a case of typical hanging. There is a horizontal mark on the nape of the neck without any tendency to peak. Most importantly the line is totally unbroken. This proves that a strangulation device must have been applied and not only fleetingly but long enough to cause these marks. ..."

http://www.rudolf-hess.org/pix/hals2.jpg

The conclusion of Professor Spann in his affidativit (here: http://www.rudolf-hess.org/english/archiv/eidspann_e.php3?fs=8) was:

15. In conclusion, we are of the opinion that the diagnosis of death stated in the death certificate is by no means established. Although we agree that the cause of death was asphyxia due to compression of the neck, we do not consider that suspension has been proved to be the cause of death. Our findings indicate rather that death occurred as a consequence of throttling.

There is an affidavit from his male nurse, Abdallah Melaouhi, (here: http://www.rudolf-hess.org/english/archiv/eidmelaouhi_e.php3?fs=8) which I have quoted in part:

2. On the day of Mr Hess' death, 17 August 1987, I commenced my duties, which involved caring for Mr Hess, as usual at 6.45 a.m. I assisted him, as was usual, with showering and dressing, and was present when he ate a meal at 10.30 a.m. At no time did he give any indication that his state of mind was disturbed or that he was unduly depressed. Shortly after the meal, he asked me to go to the nearby town of Spandau to purchase a ceramic pot to replace one which was defective. Mr Hess would not have made such a request merely to ensure my absence, since I was always absent in any event from midday, during my noon pause.

4. When I entered the summerhouse, the scene was like a wrestling match had taken place; the entire place was in confusion. The straw tiled mat which covered the floor was in disarray, although only the day before I had cleaned the floor and had left the straw tiled mat carefully arranged in its usual place. A tall lamp had fallen over, but I clearly remember that the cable attached to the lamp was still connected to the main socket. It was this lamp cable which the authorities later said that Mr Hess had used to hang himself. A round table and Mr Hess's armchair had also been overturned. In summary, none of the furniture or equipment was in its usual place, and there is no question in my mind but that a struggle had taken place in the summerhouse.

5. The body of Mr Hess was lying on the floor of the summerhouse, apparently lifeless. Near to his body stood two soldiers dressed in US Army uniforms. I had never seen either soldier before. I also saw an American guard, whom I knew as a Mr Tony Jordan. There was no cable anywhere near the body of Mr Hess; as I have said, the only cable was attached to the fallen lamp which was still plugged into the wall.

7. The guard whom I knew as Jordan stood near Mr Hess's feet and appeared overwrought. He was sweating heavily, his shirt was saturated with sweat and he was not wearing a tie. I said to Jordan: "what have you done with him?" He replied: "The pig is finished, you won't have to work a night shift any longer". I told him to bring the emergency case (which contained a first aid kit) and the oxygen appliance, while I commenced artificial respiration. When Jordan returned with the equipment, I noticed that he had first taken the opportunity to change his clothes. The equipment which he brought had clearly been interfered with. The seal on the emergency case had been broken open and its contents were in a state of disorder. The intubation instrument set had no battery and the tube was perforated. Further, the oxygen appliance had no oxygen in it. Yet when I had checked the emergency case and the oxygen appliance that same morning, as part of my normal duties, I am certain that both had been in full working order.

10. During the five years in which I daily cared for Mr Hess, I was able to obtain a clear and accurate impression of his physical capabilities. I do not consider, given his physical condition, that it would have been possible for Mr Hess to have committed suicide in the manner later published by the Allied powers. He had neither the strength nor the mobility to place an electric flex around his neck, knot it and either hang or strangle himself. Mr Hess was so weak that he needed a special chair to help him stand up. He walked bent over with a cane and was almost blind. If ever he fell to the ground he could not get up again. Most significantly, his hands were crippled with arthritis; he was not able, for example, to tie his shoelaces. I consider that he was incapable of the degree of manual dexterity necessary to manipulate the electric flex as suggested. Further, he was not capable of lifting his arms above his shoulders; it is therefore in my view not possible that he was able to attach the electric flex to the window catch from which he is alleged to have suspended himself.

11. Having regard to first Mr Hess' physical condition; second, the scene which I discovered in the summerhouse, in particular the location of the electric flex; and third, the surrounding circumstances as I have described them, I am firmly of the view that Mr Hess could not possibly have committed suicide as has been claimed. In my view, it is clear that he met his death by strangulation, at the hands of a third party.

I have read Speer's prison diaries and I found the plight of Hess to be rather poignant. It was more than sickening to read of the treatment Hess recieved. But why would they want to murder a very old man? He was about 86 or 87, if I remember correctly. Have you also heard the theory that Hess was really somewhere else and an imposter took his place?

I have read Speer's prison diaries and I found the plight of Hess to be rather poignant. It was more than sickening to read of the treatment Hess recieved. But why would they want to murder a very old man? He was about 86 or 87, if I remember correctly. Have you also heard the theory that Hess was really somewhere else and an imposter took his place?

Very simple. Gorbatchev and the Soviets were ready to give up the entire Spandau Project. He would have been able to go free during their turn of Guarding spandau.
The British Secret Service feared this the most. They didn't want him to talk about his flight in 1941. That was also the reason all Newspapers he read were censored if it mentioned anything on the War and he was not allowed to talk about these matters with his family.
They realy are the most despicable Bastards one can imagine. First they fill him full of druggs and torture him, then put him on a kangaroo court and sentence him to life in Prison because of "Crimes against Peace", although he flew to England to end the War, and then they murder him.
What heros - a nearly 90 year old man! Thats what they are best at: Killing woman and children and old men.

Very simple. Gorbatchev and the Soviets were ready to give up the entire Spandau Project. He would have been able to go free during their turn of Guarding spandau.
The British Secret Service feared this the most. They didn't want him to talk about his flight in 1941. That was also the reason all Newspapers he read were censored if it mentioned anything on the War and he was not allowed to talk about these matters with his family.
They realy are the most despicable Bastards one can imagine. First they fill him full of druggs and torture him, then put him on a kangaroo court and sentence him to life in Prison because of "Crimes against Peace", although he flew to England to end the War, and then they murder him.
What heros - a nearly 90 year old man! Thats what they are best at: Killing woman and children and old men.


I got confused at the end. Are we talking about the British or the Germans?

YD, it would help for once if you would not just Troll a thread you do not agree with. You asked a question and Chris answered. Care to stay on topic?

YD, it would help for once if you would not just Troll a thread you do not agree with. You asked a question and Chris answered. Care to stay on topic?

I'm making a point. Dr Brandt likes to pretend that the Germans were very nice people who only threw candy and chocolate at the Allies during WW2.

The point of this thread is RUDOLF HESS and wether he was murdered or not. I getting quite tired of this BS.

Get on topic please

From the description of the physical condition of Herr Hess I find it hard to believe that he would be left unsupervised for an hour each day on a regular basis.
He appears to be have been quite at risk , a man who is nearly blind , who has to use a special chair to get up and who if he fell would be quite likely to injure himself or at least would be unable to get up unaided.
If there were a "wrestling match" its unlikely that the body would not be marked , given the delicate nature of the skin on any person of advanced age , which is suspectible to bruising with almost any physical contact.
Any restraint would have been signposted by bruising and if a struggle had taken place ( as the nurse indicated) this would have been easily picked up on.
The man bathed in sweat, to subdue such an elderly man would not have presented such a state of exertion , three people on one elderly man ?

The alledged interference with the resuss. / 02 equipment. The easy way to do this would be to change the cylinder , why punture the tubing ?
As far as the battery in the et tool replacing the battery with a dud one would be a more meaningful way of covering tracks .
Seals are easily obtained and if any attempt was made to sabotage any resus. attempts it could have been much more " professional " than is indicated.
If Herr Hess was murdered , it was a very bungled and inefficent murder.

As far as state of mind goes , the person who really does intend to take their own life does not impart any warning of the intention as this would endanger any success. This is not unusual in itself.

I wonder why if silence was demanded that his life was not taken earlier , closer to the end of the war , the oportunity would have been there and the public sympathy lacking , it could have been explained away much easier.
The murder to ensure silence does not hold water , if the need to keep him in prison was urgent , the other powers could have taken up the slack.
Given the age factor why was there any need to kill him , Dr. Brandt's "simple answer" does not hold water.
Would want to see more of the "Allied" p.m. findings.
Certainly I am not impressed with the statement made by the nurse , it does not add up.

Certainly I am not impressed with the statement made by the nurse , it does not add up.

And we are not "impressed" by your statements either.

Dr. Brandt.
I am not going to get embroiled in a " flame war" with you , as far as I am aware you are a "you" ( singular ) and not a "we".(plural).
As a moderator you should not try and provoke one.

The points I made are valid and deserve consideration , there are indeed questions to be answered regarding the death of Herr Hess.

I cannot understand why it would appear that he be left unsupervised for an hour each day when the nurse went to lunch.
If there was "quite a wrestling match" and one man as "bathed in sweat" , I would certainly expect to find the delicate skin of a man 80 years plus to be badly bruised.
The implication is that these men "never seen before" had some sinister part to play in the death , yet they appear to have not been involved in
" wrestling match ".
The special chair is probably an " ejector chair " nothing terribly complicated.
The lack of bruising would indicate that no struggle took place and that much of what has been put on record is assumption rather than fact.