How was that again with the "fair" and "chivalrous" English Army? I wonder which english officers were hanged for war-crimes for this act of anglo-saxon butchery?


http://home.online.no/~vestil/crete/invasjon/

>>This extremely rare photo shows german paratroopers brutally murdered
by english soldiers as the originale text says behind this private photo.
They were abused, then beaten to death. The photos also shows bulletholes
on the corpses. Also note the bulletholes on the walls behind the corpses.
The flesh on the upper part of the right leg of the corpse to the left has
been totally removed or burnt. A block of wood has also been pushed
into his anus. The photo is probably taken nearby Heraklion in May 1941.
The dead soldiers belonged to the FJR.1.<<<

If these soldiers were murdered by British or Commonwealth troops ( or even by Greeks) , I for one would not condone it .

To put in place some balance this was not a regular feature of war between British and German troops.

Dr. Brandt would be aware of the equally disgusting murder of British soldier by members of the Leibstandarte in June 1940 .
( You remember the one Dr. Brandt, Wilhelm Monke was often named in reation to it).
I am sure Dr. Brandt will share my equal condemnation of it.

Regarding the use of this graphic and realistic portrait of death , I am forecd to remeber when I posted in good faith a jpeg showing the death of some panzer grenadiers in Normandy , I was soundly rebuked for posting the jpeg.
Will the same follow here ?

That is only fair IMO. Please Wehr remove yourself that grafic image as we have removed also other similar images of dead soldiers before. At least just place a link to it.

That is only fair IMO. Please Wehr remove yourself that grafic image as we have removed also other similar images of dead soldiers before. At least just place a link to it.


The Website does not allow "rightclick" and directing you to the link. It is "forbidden". I had to download it and post it directly.

I see nothing wrong with showing such a picture. I am not making fun of our dead. Let them all see how our Soldiers were treated by the "noble allies"!

The so called "Massacre of Wormhoudt" is nothing to apologize for or show any regret. It was a normal execution as retaliation for massacred german airmen. The Waffen SS found the crew of a shot down He111 which was tortured to death. One airman was was tied to an iron gate which was used as "grill" and roasted alive. The local population informed german officers, that the english had done this to the airmen (which fits perfectly well into the behavior of these 2noblemen" in regards to the picture of the paratroopers on crete).
Unlike the allies, our soldiers were no sadistic perverts who enjoyed such bloody orgys. The execution was a deterent and punishment for the allied crimes against our men.

This is a two way road Wehr and I do hope you wont make any complains if Cerberus now begins posting German atrocities too.

On a different note I´m hesitant about this whole approach not that we want to turn the Phora into an Ogrish.com mirror. Lets see where this leads us.

Ebusitanus , Thank you for your fair and even handed approach to what is at best a delicate issue.
I make no bones about it , any killing of captured German paras on Crete was quite wrong.
I saw on a recent TV programme on Crete how a British veteran had described seeeing two captured German paras sent to the rear , later the same day he saw the same two men dead in a ditch.
Quite sickening and wrong , Dr. Brandt is quite wrong to think that the Allies had the monopoly on such behaviour , I don't for a minute believe that this is true.
As far as the killing of a HE-111 crew can Dr. Brandt produce anything more than hearsay to back this up ?
I do not believe for a minute that this took place , not for a minute.
This would not be the first time that I have asked Dr. Brandt for some documented evidence, which he has ignored.

As far as posting up pictures of civilians or soldiers killed by or allegedly killed by German troops it would be simple but demeaning to all , not least the dead.
I have no interest in anything like that.
I have no problem believeing that Allied soldiers could kill captured troops out of hand , Dr. Brandt gave an example of this previously in Sicily , I made no bones about saying it was wrong and would agree with him again on it now.
Dr. Brandt has some problems approaching similar issues in the same manner.
Not really interested in a " slanging match " on this , bottom line is in time of war people do things in the heat of the moment that they are often ashamed of in later life.

As for the killings by the Leibstandarte , no one could say there was any excuse for them. Dr. B. looks too much through rose coloured glasses.
If you actually believe that german troops could never do such things you are sadly mistaken in your knowledge and experience of human nature.

The method of how you kill a person says a lot about the character. Peeling of the skin from ones hands (like the bolsheviks did), gouging out eyes, smashing skulls and splattering the brains all over the kitchen (like Polaks did), or burning ones flesh from ones legs and ramming a stake up ones ass (like the Brits) did, can only be done by an inhumane, mercyless and perverted Soldateska.
On the other hand, lining up a bunch of people against a wall and giving them a quick and painless death would be nothing compared to the mutilations on that picture.

The incident of the german Pilot happend on 11th June 1940. (was reported) bei Erich Pröhl, 1. San.-Komp. SS-Pol. Div., in the town of Semuy. source: Anglo-American War-Crimes, by Gert Sudholt.

Btw...Wehr, is it possible that these tortured German Paras were victims of the populance rather than the regular soldiers? Many Paratroopers were slain and mutilated by the Cretan civilian population, to the extend that a whole German platoon was slaughtered in some village that was later on razed to the ground by the righful vengeful German troops once the island was secure. I have no doubts about the shooting of prisoners but this horrible mutilation is hard for me to lay on Commonwealth troops (Not that its impossible of course).

The site itself Dr. Brandt is one which presents some good studies of the Paras.
The small radio buggy is of aprticular interest.
I would haveto agree with Ebusitanus , this type of crime is not what I would associate with Commonwealth troops.
As it stands you have just the description to provide by way of proof , you may be wrong.
As far as the report by the SS Pol. Divison goes , might this be the means to justify the killing of the troops by te Leibstandarte ?
Even if this were the case which I doubt , its unreasonable that a group of prisoners unrelated to the " crime" be executed as a simple act of revenge.
"War crime" cannot be selectively applied.

After checking on that website so it seems that the guy who shot the photos and wrote the descriptions behind them must have had a reason for writing that. A reason now maybe lost to us but which can not let us lead to writte it off just because it was not "common" under Comonwealth troops. Those photos were surely not made to hang out on the pages of "Signal" and therefore I will take them as legit proof of the horrors and irrationalities of war.

EYTYXEITE!
Dear Fellows,
I'm a Hellen (Greek) and I have a wide known about the battle of Crete.
Unfortunately incidents like that were real,many, and wide known commited by New Zelanders, Australian, British and Cretans agains non-armed German paratroopers. I say non-armed because as it is known those paratroops didn't permit to carry carbines or to use any weapon during descent.
There are a lot of pictures like that in Bundesarchive but the banana-Authorities of Germany don't permit to be published in order to avoid the real explanation of punishments which, afterwar, nominated "war-crimes" of the "criminal" Nazis.
As it is known, after this criminal activity of Allies and natives, German destroy the village of C a n d a n o s something very logical in order to punish this horrible crime!
Today they are in Crete many old men who accept the responsibility of these incidents but officially never asked a pardon!
Upon visiting the villages of beautiful Crete even today the memory of these atrocities is the focus point of elder Cretans but being a common secret among natives they prefer to avoid open conversations...
Force the puppets of German Government to give this meterial in publicity. Then will be explained the real war-criminality during Second World War!
Kindest Regards!

And how many German tourists go to that island every summer? Must be odd

I would say that they were not common , and in that I don't excuse or condone any such killings which did take place.
From Crete a lot of these troops went on to serve in North Africa , a theatre of war which was fought with respect for the other side by all concerned.

The idea Dr. Brandt puts forwrd is that german troops never contravened " the rules of war" and that the " noblemen" of the Allies did so on a regular basis.
His use of this photograph to say " here is the proof " is more than a little jaundiced and is not accurate.

When given previous examples of actions which were clearly war crimes Dr. Brandt dismisses them off hand and never voices any critical word.
I would remind him of several examples given to him via the "old Phora".

I agree with Ebusitanus in that the photgraph shows what people can do in time of war , certainly not pretty and certainly nothing to be proud of.
What is clear and that which Dr. Brandt ignores is that no one side was imune from its own forces doing likewise.

If you are going to "throw stones" Dr. Brandt I suggest you sell the green house.

EYTYXEITE!
Dear Fellows,the vital point in the case of Cretan population is its special psychology, much different than the rest of Hellenes.
Cretans are very proud for themselves and they don't feel so much "Hellenes" as they feel Cretans. In their majority they are separatists!! Their civilization is very different as well. Their stronger love has to do with guns but not with war! During last World War ( Cretan Division in northern front ) they were the worst Hellenes warriors and I remember General Ioannis Ladas refering with the worst words to Cretans. They pretend to be heroes but the reality is much opposite.
It is known ( Raymon Cartier ) that during second World War paratroopers were falling for a first time on the battle field. No previous experience for them and because of the technology of their paratroops were unable to use weapons during their descent. German were only 11000 men and Allies ( plus fighting corpses of Hellenes, i.e. Army and Gendarmerie) 120.000 men. Furthermore, a large number of natives violated the International Convention of Geneva rise the arms against German invaders. Indipendently if it was correct or not it gave to the Germans the right to take measures against the population after their victory!
Germans were the great finalist! First time in history they achieved a great Victory over a very large Army well protected with tanks, heavy warships, anti-arcraft systems and fighting in their own land having the support of the locals.
After this victory, Cretan population start to respect Germans much more than Allies.
After War in the area of Maleme ( Chanea ) the Deutsche Soldatenfriedhof is full respactable and occupies the highest and best point of area.
Every year in this cemetery a lot of ceremonies take place to honour the German Soldiers and the locals pay honour to their ex-enemies.
Today, the largest turism is German and upon visiting a Cretan Family the elder member has a German Luger Parabelum to show you as the best memorabilia of ...last war-experience.
Finally, Cretan people established the best connections with Germans in the field of turism because they prefer the financial support of the latest than to remember Candanos and the bitter past.
So, in entire Crete you will watch labels in German and not in Greek!
It was the final and heavier victory of the Germans over Crete!And how many German tourists go to that island every summer? Must be odd

EYTYXEITE!
Dear Fellows, I think that in order to understand History we have to publish a n y photograph is needed. Any "excuse" based on "humanitarian' ...reasons is not acceptable! Especially, the photographs from Allies' atrocities in Greece are necessary to show because Allies falsificate a lot of "evidence" in the filthy mockery of Nurenberg "trial" with the result of a large massacre of innocents afterwars.The worst, with the result of the massacre of the entire Germany for the last 60 years!
Kindest Regards!

Publishing photographs is fine , it does not cause me any great pains from a moral perspective as long as it is within an historical remit.
When a photograph is published to put across a potential politically rather than a historical point for me its different ground.
The people in the photograhs are after all human beings , they have relatives, the dead should not be exploited.


I don't feel that the Fallschirmjager were "evil Nazis demons" and I don't agree with Dr. Brandt's general assertion that the "noblemen" of the British / Commonwealth forces were some form of sadistic killers.
Propaganda does not depend on a balanced view and as such is not reliable source.

Here's a question:

And heres an answer: thanks for ruining another thread with your purile and imature babbling which contributs absolutely NOTHING to the topic which happens to be "CRETE".
Locked!

When I started ( the now locked) thread II about Crete this one was still locked, now its a case of locking the "new one" and unlocking the "old one."

Had the crete thread been open I would not have had to open an alternative one . ( WHich promptly closed).

Crete was a bitter, hard-fought battle, and crimes were committed by both sides.

If German FJ's were treated exceptionally badly, chances are because, at least still in that part of the war, paratroopers were considered "not sporting". Hardly an excuse, but an explaination.

War is rarely pretty. But is there any evidence that crimes against captured German personnel were ordered by high-ranking British officers? Because that's really what separates a situation where you could hold the British at fault, rather than just soldiers here and there who were British.

You will probably find its the case that officers in the field knew it was going on and did nothing , this would be common to both sides.
I have a feeling that Jochen Peiper was caught in the same boat , he didn't order the killings but because he was commander he carried the can for someone else's doings.

Freyberg witdrew from the heights overlooking Maleame ( Think that's spelt right).
Had he stayed put its unlikely that the airfield would have been captured and transport aircraft flown in.
After the first day no objective had been taken the Fj on the ground were in a bad way hanging on and no more.
It certainly is a credit to the Fj. as soldiers that they stuck with it and to Student that he acted with energy and purpose to back them up.

Mountbatten nearly came a cropper at Crete when HMS Kelly was sunk , he should never have been there so exposed.
Luftwaffe certainly stook a heavy toll on British surface craft.
Had O'Connor had his way the British would have not been there. he maintained post war that if they had put their resources into fighting in North Africa they would have pushed the Italians out completely rather than going chasing off to Greece .
Churchill's folly done so I think against advice.
With no Italian Army in Africa its unlikely that any German troops would have set foot there and its highly likely that Malta would have been taken.
The Med. offered so many possibilites to Germany yet was so much ignored.

The attempts to take troops / supplies to crete by sea was a total failure.
A possible glimpse of what sealion might have been.
What was the ultimate value of occupying Crete , Hitler wanted it occupied to keep british bombers away from his only source of oil.