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View Full Version : Iraqi Abuses Revive Nightmares for German POWs


FadeTheButcher
08-06-2004, 07:14 AM
http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsArticle.jhtml?type=featuresNews&storyID=5610255&section=news

By Erik Kirschbaum


RHEINBERG, Germany (Reuters) - The nightmares come back to Heinz Gerth when pictures of American soldiers abusing prisoners in Iraq appear on television, images that remind him of his brush with death as a U.S. prisoner in 1945.

Gerth had surrendered to American soldiers as an 18-year-old German conscript and was put behind barbed wire in an open field at the end of World War II.

Thousands starved to death, died from disease or exposure -- and Gerth nearly perished with them.

"We thought the Americans wanted us to starve to death," said Gerth, bursting into tears at memories of prisoners dying slow deaths, or of those who were buried alive when makeshift trenches dug for shelter collapsed in rain or of those shot by guards in suicidal runs at the barbed wire.

"It was a death camp," said 77-year-old Gerth, referring to one of the most notorious "Rhine Meadow camps" at Rheinberg, north of Cologne. Rare pictures of emaciated prisoners behind barbed wire bear a resemblance to the Nazi concentration camps, where 6 million Jews were killed. The concentration camps were being liberated as the Rhine camps were set up.

Gerth said his weight fell to 110 pounds from 176 pounds in his month at Rheinberg. "We went days on end without food or water. Eating grass saved me. Those abused in Iraq will be haunted for life."

In Iraq, U.S. military police have been accused of hooding, stripping naked and sexually humiliating prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad, a scandal that has caused outrage in the Arab and Muslim world and undermined U.S. efforts in Iraq.

Although the origins and scale of maltreatment in Iraq and post-war Germany are vastly different, the images from Iraq have revived memories of the conditions at 16 "Rhine Meadow camps" where thousands of Germans were held in open fields without shelter and a minimum of food in the months after the war ended.

"Rheinberg was a shocking place," said Herbert Schnoor, who spent several months there as a 17-year-old conscript.

"It was a brutalization of human beings," Schnoor, retired interior minister of North Rhine-Westphalia state, told Reuters. "But the whole war was filled with atrocities. In hindsight, we were lucky to avoid the Soviets. That would have been worse."

DARK CHAPTER

Like the controversial detention without charge of 650 foreigners described as "enemy combatants" at Guantanamo Naval Base in Cuba, the United States classified the Germans "disarmed enemy forces" rather than "prisoners of war." That meant they were not protected by the Geneva Convention.

Under Geneva Convention rules, German POWs should have received the same rations as their Allied captors. As "disarmed enemy forces," they got less.

"We weren't POWs and had no rights," said Dietrich Kienscherf, 77, who spent seven weeks in the Rheinberg camp.

"We had no shelter and hardly any food," added Kienscherf, who saw Americans maltreating German prisoners caught trying to steal food. "They had just discovered Nazi concentration camps and took it out on us. They wanted to do the same thing to us."

With daily rations of a slice of bread and a half quart of soup or an uncooked potato, some prisoners took to eating grass, tree bark, turnip roots or even snails, according to a 1995 report by the town of Rheinberg filled with survivors accounts.

It quoted survivors accusing American soldiers of taking their watches and rings and beating those who complained. Several said those caught stealing food were forced to eat soap.

As the German army's western front collapsed in early 1945, some 5 million Wehrmacht soldiers were captured or surrendered to advancing U.S. forces. Even the wounded, including amputees, were taken from hospitals and put in camps.

Historians estimate that between 5,000 and 20,000 German prisoners died of starvation, disease and exposure.

"The Rhine Meadow camps are a dark chapter in American military history," said Klaus-Dietmar Henke, a history professor at Dresden University. "There were certainly incidents of murder, executions, and thousands did starve to death.

"But contrary to some claims, there is no evidence of a deliberate program of death," he added. "Pictures of just liberated concentration camps probably hardened individual GIs to acts of abuse. But there was no pre-meditated extermination."

Henke and U.S. historians have noted there was a worldwide shortage of food in 1945 and they estimated the death rate of German POWs in American hands was 1 to 5 percent, slightly higher than a 1 percent death rate of U.S. POWs in Germany and far below that for Germans in Soviet hands: 35 to 50 percent. "It was more that the Allies were overwhelmed by so many prisoners and were not prepared for them," said Henke.

Dr. Brandt
08-06-2004, 07:47 AM
The usual silly excuses of "not being prepared" and "not deliberately" killing them, as well as the obligatory reference to the "6 Million" and the denial of higher estimates made by James Baque.
Of course they were prepared. Otherwise they wouldn't have burned the red-cross packages outside the fence of the camp, in front of the starving POWs. And why did they shoot at any civilians trying to throw food over the fence for our men?
"Not deliberate" my ass!
"Kirschbaum" - what a jewish sounding name!

Chris2
08-06-2004, 08:17 AM
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1165225/posts

All freepers should be shot on sight.

otto_von_bismarck
08-06-2004, 08:27 AM
Actually FR was pretty informative there... so it was in the Brit camps most of the Germans starved.


With daily rations of a slice of bread and a half quart of soup or an uncooked potato

Not adequate to maintain life forever... but it takes you a long time to die on that.

Dr. Brandt
08-06-2004, 04:26 PM
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1165225/posts

All freepers should be shot on sight.

I cant even read their site, without getting an ulcer. They are probably a bunch of fat, swaety armchair-generals, who sit at their desk in wrinkled, unwashed, 3 month old underwears and flapping their mouths of how tough the USA is.
"Islamofascists" - LOL - Im surprised they can even spell it. There is nothing that beats a picture of some sloughtered Uloojs hanging from a Bridge, to make one feel better after reading such crap.

Darth Murph
08-06-2004, 08:09 PM
I'm sure some of you have seen this before, but it's worth reading. An eyewitness account by a US Soldier-

http://www.rense.com/general46/eisn.htm

In 'Eisenhower's Death Camps' -
A US Prison Guard's Story

By Martin Brech
12-28-03


In October, 1944, at age eighteen, I was drafted into the U.S. army. Largely because of the "Battle of the Bulge," my training was cut short. My furlough was halved, and I was sent overseas immediately. Upon arrival in Le Havre, France, we were quickly loaded into box cars and shipped to the front. When we got there, I was suffering increasingly severe symptoms of mononucleosis, and was sent to a hospital in Belgium. Since mononucleosis was then known as the "kissing disease," I mailed a letter of thanks to my girlfriend.

By the time I left the hospital, the outfit I had trained with in Spartanburg, South Carolina was deep inside Germany, so, despite my protests, I was placed in a ãrepo depotä(replacement depot). I lost interest in the units to which I was assigned and don't recall all of them: non-combat units were ridiculed at that time. My separation qualification record states I was mostly with Company C, 14th Infantry Regiment, during my seventeen-month stay in Germany, but I remember being transferred to other outfits also.

In late March or early April, 1945, I was sent to guard a POW camp near Andernach along the Rhine. I had four years of high school German, so I was able to talk to the prisoners, although this was forbidden. Gradually, however, I was used as an interpreter and asked to ferret out members of the S.S. (I found none.)

In Andernach about 50,000 prisoners of all ages were held in an open field surrounded by barbed wire. The women were kept in a separate enclosure I did not see until later. The men I guarded had no shelter and no blankets; many had no coats. They slept in the mud, wet and cold, with inadequate slit trenches for excrement. It was a cold, wet spring and their misery from exposure alone was evident.....

Ebusitanus
08-06-2004, 10:25 PM
My grandfather was in one of these Rhine Camps after getting caught in the Ruhr in 1945.

Sinclair
08-07-2004, 12:56 AM
If seeing American soldiers abuse foriegn PoWs is an issue, how did German WWII vets make it through coverage of Vietnam?

Idi Amin
08-13-2004, 05:35 AM
Some of them fought in Vietnam.

Sinclair
08-13-2004, 01:57 PM
Hm?

I mean, there is evidence that Otto Skorzeny may have worked for the North Vietnamese at some point, but what do you mean?

Idi Amin
08-13-2004, 04:22 PM
I'm not sure if they're true but I've heard stories of German soldiers joining the French foriegn legion and fighting in French Indochina in the 50s at the beginning of the breakdown of French colonial rule (i.e. they fought for France). Or maybe I saw it in a movie. But I'm pretty sure it happened.

Dr. Brandt
08-13-2004, 09:30 PM
I'm not sure if they're true but I've heard stories of German soldiers joining the French foriegn legion and fighting in French Indochina in the 50s at the beginning of the breakdown of French colonial rule (i.e. they fought for France). Or maybe I saw it in a movie. But I'm pretty sure it happened.

They were Waffen SS-soldiers pressed to join. They had a choice between joining or hanging.