http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/3927833.stm

Countries battle over artefacts


An Aboriginal group has prevented native Australian artefacts from returning to the UK museums from which they were loaned. BBC News Online looks at other disputed treasures and the growing calls to have them repatriated.



http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40423000/jpg/_40423367_marbles203.jpg The Elgin Marbles are seen by millions of people every year

In 1810, a total of 56 sculpted friezes, depicting gods, men and monsters, were removed from the Parthenon in Athens by British ambassador Lord Elgin.

They were brought to Britain and housed in the British Museum where they have remained.

Repeated calls for the return of the Elgin Marbles to their homeland have fallen on deaf ears, with the British Museum adamant they should remain in a place where they can be seen by international visitors.

The British Committee for the Restitution of the Parthenon Marbles have long called for the Marbles to be returned to their homeland.

Eleni Cubitt, secretary of the Committee, told BBC News Online they wanted the Greek and UK governments to talk openly about the future of the Marbles.

"We want the UK and Greek governments to open a dialogue about the reunification of the Marbles then discuss together where is the best place to display them.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gifDisputed artefacts
Elgin Marbles - Greece (British Museum)
Queen Nefertiti bust - Egypt (The Egyptian Museum, Germany)
Tabots - Ethiopia (British Museum)
Benin Bronzes - Nigeria (British Museum)
Obelisk - Ethiopia (Rome, Italy)
Rosetta Stone - Egypt (British Museum)



"We think they should be displayed in the new Acropolis Museum in Athens which should be completed next year."

The British Museum, who recently rejected a request by the Greek government for a long term loan of the Marbles, maintains it is the best place for them to be, reaching five million visitors every year.

Director of the museum, Neil MacGregor, said: "The British Museum is the best possible place for the Parthenon sculptures in its collections to be on display.

"The range of the British Museum's collections is truly worldwide.

"The collections provide a uniquely rich setting for the Parthenon sculptures as an important chapter in the story of human cultural achievement.

"Only here can the worldwide significance of the sculptures be fully grasped".

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gif Museums are concerned that if they acquiesce to one request, everyone with a claim will do the same


Rochelle Roca-Hachem, Unesco



While the campaign to have the Elgin marbles returned to Greece continues to be the most high-profile, many other artefacts held by the British Museum are also disputed.

A request by the Egyptians to borrow the Rosetta Stone for an exhibition in Cairo was rebuffed by the museum last year.

Meanwhile, the Nigerian government bought back about 30 Benin Bronzes from the British Museum during the 1970s, but the museum has refused to hand back the full collection of 700 bronzes, despite repeated calls by the Nigerian government.

But the British Museum is certainly not alone in holding artefacts which the country or origin want back.

Egypt have requested back a 3,000-year old bust of Queen Nefertiti from the Egyptian Museum in Berlin, while Ethiopia is demanding the return from Italy of one of its most famous monuments - an obelisk.



It was taken to Italy on the orders of dictator Benito Mussolini more than 60 years ago, but it is still to be repatriated despite Italian officials finally agreeing to its return two years ago.

Other countries which claim to have suffered losses include China, Iraq, Libya and Syria.

Closer to home, the British Library has refused repeated requests to return the Lindisfarne Gospels to the North East of England where they were created in the 7th Century AD.

A 1970 Unesco convention calls for the return of antiquities and works of art to their countries of origin, but does not apply to artefacts or objects taken to other countries before 1970 - such as the Elgin Marbles.

Rochelle Roca-Hachem, of the cultural heritage division at Unesco, told BBC News Online it was an issue the wider public was becoming aware of.

Working together

"[Governments] are increasingly likely to be open to dialogue as the public becomes more aware of how important cultural property is.

"The museums on one hand raise the profile and respect of other cultures through visitors to the museum, but there are some artefacts that are obviously more valuable and symbolic than others.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gif (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/3929527.stm)
"Museums are concerned that if they acquiesce to one request, everyone with a claim will do the same and they will lose their incentive to be the museum they are.

"As a result, many shy away from it completely in order to protect their entire collections."

But Ms Roca-Hachem said there were successful examples of countries working together to return artefacts.

"Greenland lost a lot of archaeological artefacts to Denmark, but once Greenland gained greater independence, the Danes helped Greenland establish their own museum over a number of years. "Denmark sent a lot of artefacts back and, as a result, it has almost become a joint collection. "It just goes to show that things can be achieved, you just have to be a little creative, and you don't necessarily have to give things back permanently."

Should these artifacts be returned to the countries of origin? If so: should there be a compensation to the museums?

Let's discuss this.

I voted stay and no compensation, probably out of an intuituve sympathy with the nation that did the dirty work of digging up the items.

I voted stay and no compensation, probably out of an intuituve sympathy with the nation that did the dirty work of digging up the items.
More than half the time, no digging is in order though Robin. Artifacts are chipped from buildings (e.g. the Elgin marbles), hereby damaging those buildings, or simply taken out of museums at times.

Well, somebody had to steal them.

Well, somebody had to steal them.
Lol, so you think because a thief puts the effort in his crime, he should be able to keep whatever he took? I'm coming over to your place Robin, and I'll 'borrow' your coolest books, it took me the effort to fly to America, so I reckon I'm entitled to keep your books.

Im a firm believer in double standards. Your dd homenium circumstantial will get you nowhere! :p

Im a firm believer in double standards. Your dd homenium circumstantial will get you nowhere! :p
tut tut, I want some neat books

Artifacts should stay in the museums, unless the museums would willingly sell them to people/nations who would like them.

Englishmen just love to steal other people's culture and heritage.

Englishmen just love to steal other people's culture and heritage.

No, they were just stronger and richer when they had their vast empire. Now, the poor little countries want their stuff back, but they don't realise they owe England a lot. (talking mainly of African countries)

EYTYXEITE!
Dear Fellows, the question is based upon two ‘branches’: moral and scientific.
I think that both ‘branches’ of this question arise same answer: YES! They must be returned to their countries if they are parts of Monuments.
Theft is always a theft! There is no point to fall into conversation with. Elgin, for example, dealt with Ottomans in order to obtain these marbles but Ottomans were not the legal owners of them! In poll I voted for returning marbles in their countries without compensating Museums for the aforementioned reason.

Now, scientifically, these fragments must return to their Monuments in order to enable Humanity enjoy its creatures. A Greek fragment exhibiting in a British Museum is something logic except if it is part of a greater Monument in Greece. For example, a crater or enochoe is allowed to be exhibited in a display cabinet in London’s Museum because they are simply items, not parts of another greater Monument. To the contrary, a freeze of Parthenon couldn’t be except if British like to transfer to London the entire of …Parthenon! It is a matter of a simply aesthetic!

Being a Greek Archaeologist I’m very sensitive in a further case: Is today’s Greece ready to accept Parthenon’s (“Elgin’s”) marbles? I definitely say NO!
In the beginning of 20th Century, first Timoleon Filimon asked to be returned to Athens the aforementioned marbles. It was not an idea of famous leftist Melina Merkouri! She steals this idea from Timoleon Filimon who was a friend of her Grand-Father Spyros Merkouris an ex mayor of Athens.
The archaeological research in Greece is very behind of our era! Thanks to the German Archaeological Institution (mostly) in Greece we can mainly speak about Archaeology! Our Museums are worst not because of exhibited items (they are perfect) but because of their improper buildings and organization. Governments here don’t care about Civilization! Only for the monetary system they are carrying! So, I believe that Greece has to improve its Museum (its entire Museums’ system) before to ask back its marbles. Until then, British Museum is more suitable to keep them. It doesn’t mean that British Museum could be the owner of these marbles but the temporary keeper until to be Greece ready to receive its own Heritage.

It all really depends on the conditions of the nation which the Museum took the artifacts from.
If we are talking about some crazed primitive nation like Afganistan or Bangladesh then I´m all for keeping these items in secure hands.
Now, if we are talking about in the meanwhile civilitzed nations then I´m totally for their return. The Elgin marbles have no place in London and should be taken to Athens asap. Actually why are they still there?

Its all about being able to care about the items oneself or not.

These artifacts should be privatised.

I tend to agree with Aristotle. If it is a fragment of a larger artifact that is still extant, it should probably be returned (if it comes from a civilised country with the required facilities) , but if it is an entire artifact in itself I see no reason in most cases for it to be returned.

It all really depends on the conditions of the nation which the Museum took the artifacts from.
If we are talking about some crazed primitive nation like Afganistan or Bangladesh then I´m all for keeping these items in secure hands.
Now, if we are talking about in the meanwhile civilitzed nations then I´m totally for their return. The Elgin marbles have no place in London and should be taken to Athens asap. Actually why are they still there?

Its all about being able to care about the items oneself or not.

I like your sig ;)

Athens is probably ready to receive the marbles. This situation can not continue indefinately. At some point in time, they will have to return.

To the contrary, a freeze of Parthenon couldn’t be except if British like to transfer to London the entire of …Parthenon!

It seems logical to send the marbles to Greece before London is overrun with nonwhites. Aren't they near the 50% mark in that city?

In fact, given the comments above about civilized/uncivilized nations, it would be best if Britian were denuded of her artistic, architectural, and archeological treasures, with said treasures being dispatched to the ends of the earth.

Britian will fall long before Greece, hence the marbles now belong in their country of origin.

Wintermute

Why would we whites even want those artifacts?