HITLER:

A Universal Symbol


The following article by Eugen Sorg appeared in the 29/04 issue of the Swiss weekly Weltwoche. It describes the extra-historical appeal of Adolf Hitler and was translated into English by Constantin von Hoffmeister. The comments of renowed German attorney and activist Horst Mahler are given at the bottom.
________________________________________

HEIL HITLER!

Sixty years after his death, the mass-destroyer is more popular than ever. In India he symbolizes resistance, in Egypt prosperity, in Peru discipline. The Senegalese celebrate him as a hero of anti-colonialism and the Chinese in Hong Kong as a champion of style.

Presumably, Hitler is the only European who, more than half a century after his death, is still widely known around the world. Other contemporary politicians, such as Churchill or de Gaulle, are merely remembered in the respective linguistic or cultural spheres; the same goes for intellectual heroes like Goethe, Kant, Cervantes, Shakespeare.

But only the mass-murderer Hitler is part of popular knowledge in Korea, Japan, Namibia or Uruguay, even outside the academic islands.

Hitler, the German, is not only the most well-known European, but beside the religious founders Mohammed, Jesus, Buddha or the slayers Genghis Khan or Stalin perhaps one of the most well-known figures of all time.

These are the results of journalistic polls by five members of our newspaper in the Southern parts of the world. For Europeans, who like to view their continent as the cradle of the Enlightenment and humanism, it is a rather embarrassing finding. And a disconcerting if not downright shocking one. Because Hitler is viewed in a positive light by millions of non-Europeans.

However, if one listens closely, this disconcertment slightly wanes. Most of the time, it is not the historical Hitler, the politician of hatred and extermination who is celebrated or even wished to reappear, but a figure of fantasy with few real attributes. Hitler has a cathartic function, in which each culture projects its specific experiences, preferences and problems.

In the corrupt and chaotic economies of South America, Hitler is read as a code for order and national unity. Africans, on the other hand, admire the strong man in him, the myth of power, but also the enemy of the former colonialists France and England.

Also in India, from whose history Hitler took his ideas of the Aryans and the Swastika, even though the subcontinent does not know any anti-Semitic traditions, Hitler is transfigured into an aid in the national liberation struggle against the British Crown. However, in East Asia, Hitler is merely present as an aesthetic influence in fashion collections, commercials and the restaurant
business, uncoupled from Nazi policies or World War II.

This is not the case in the Arabic and Iranian center of Islam. Not only is Hitler celebrating a renaissance in the Middle East, but the modern view of Hitler is closest to the historical one. In contrast to the West, the historical facts are evaluated differently.

What is condemned as the most abominable deed of Hitler: the attempted extermination of the Jews, is judged as honorable politics by many in the Middle East. The only reproach: Hitler did not finish the job.
_____________________________________________________


Horst Mahler comments:

The Jews have already lost—they just don't know it yet. The publication of the article by Eugen Sorg in the Zürich weekly is an important act of rebellion. Now it is important to forge an ever-effective weapon from it.

What is so important about this article? It documents the powerlessness of the historical perspective forced on us by the Jews—even more: it freshens our insight into the nature of Mephisto, which is explored in Goethe's Faust:

FAUST (to Mephisto): All right, who are you?

MEPHISTOPHELES: A part of the force that always wants
evil but constantly creates good.
[Werke: Faust. Eine Tragödie, Goethe-HA Bd. 3, S. 47]

What is the aim of the Jews?

To make the nations believe that Adolf Hitler was the greatest criminal of human history—the devil.

What do they achieve?

That Adolf Hitler appears to the nations—from all kinds of perspectives—as the greatest hero that the 20th Century has seen.

Is all of humanity crazy—except the Jews?

The Jews have overlooked a minor fact: We can prove, through their own holy books, that they worship the cruelest murderer as their most holy one—because of his lust to kill. This lust makes the wheat of the Jews grow,
throughout the world. Yahweh is truly Satan, the destroyer of worlds (John 8:44).

Therefore, how can the so-called Holocaust be a reason for the nations, which suffer under the Jews, not to love Adolf Hitler?

Judah has finally been revealed as the wolf who ate chalk, rolled his paw in dough and powdered it with flour.

Finally one is allowed to laugh at him.
_____________________________________________________


For further information on the Hitler phenomenon, contact the:




NEW ORDER
Dept E
PO Box 270486
Milwaukee WI 53227

http://www.theneworder.org

I too think he was great :D

I too think he was great :D

I realy like Horst Mahler! It shows that every German can return to the craddle of Mother Germania, if he just opens his eyes!

I was referring to the Führer.
Quite surprising you like Horst Mahler, I don´t trust him one foot...

I was referring to the Führer.
Quite surprising you like Horst Mahler, I don´t trust him one foot...

I like what he says. No one said anything of "trusting". :D

I don't trust anyone!

Hitler has become a legend of mythic proportions like Odin, Wotan. It's interesting because the Jews have played a large part of keeping the Hitler legend alive in the Western world.

Perhaps infamy is more enduring than fame?

Maybe it's like the "bad news sells papers" thing. People are more interested in things portrayed as "bad".

Look at the public's interest in serial killers, the Mafia, etc.

Was very much a cult figure and a product of propaganda when he was alive.
You would think he never made a mistake or was blessed with a knowledge superior to many others.
I don't find Hitler to be a person I can admire , I try to view him "warts and all".
Had he called quits in 1938 he might have gone down as a great man , had he not been such a monster towards his own people e.g. the one party state , T4 , his mistreatment of minority groups and his laws of Blood and Honour etc.
Would Germany have avoided the inflation time bomb which was cooking and against which he had been warned ?
Without a war I don't think he would have lasted in power.
Why is he remembered ?
Mao , Stalin , Pol Pot , Hitler , Tojo ,just some of the " warnings from history" we have had in the past century.
mankind is a slow learner , there will be others , just wait a while.

Had he called quits in 1938 he might have gone down as a great man, had he not been such a monster towards his own people e.g. the one party state, T4, his mistreatment of minority groups and his laws of Blood and Honour etc.
1) With a "one party state" Hitler gave Germany honest and forthright government - preferable to the deceptive and destructive perpetual plutocratic regime of an alien (Jewish) oligarchy such as now plagues us.

2) Please bring T4 back, and bigtime, to make a dent in the general idiocy which also plagues the United State of Stupidity.

3) Also, mistreatment of minorities might suggest to them the desirability of repatriation.

4) Blut-und-Ehre or emetic Jewish Media culture. You choose.

Would Germany have avoided the inflation time bomb which was cooking and against which he had been warned? Without a war I don't think he would have lasted in power.
Correct. All major powers must expand or decline.

Why is he remembered? Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler, Tojo, just some of the "warnings from history" we have had in the past century. Mankind is a slow learner, there will be others, just wait a while.
There is nothing to "learn" in this regard, Grasshopper. Hitler and Tojo did what was necessary in view of the inescapable limitations on the amelioration of human affairs by political administration. Our prospects are now all the more terrible for the wartime interference with the properly-directed Axis powers by the mendacious Judeo-Communist tyranny fronted by FDR.

All one party States have their day Russia , germany , eventually China will go by the board.
Germany 33-45 was no godsent , even if you take the war out of it.
Was the price asked too high ? I believe it was.
T4 , would you wish to be the person doing the killing ?
When the minorities are your own people , those who " don't fit in" or won't " tow the line". ( Germans).
In flation was just around the corner , Hitlers answer was to sack those who warned him and close his ears to any such news.
All major powers expand and die , Germany had been expanding for about 4 -5 years when the bubble was about to burst.
Had it done so before war came about the NS dream would have gone with it , completely and present day views of Hitler would be very different. Apart perhaps from the idea that the "Jews" brought about the ruin of the State. ( Which would have been completely untrue).
Something he did time and time again during the war. ( Scape goating).
Something to learn.
Hitler did not (could not ) learn and that contributed hugely to Germany's defeat.

Hitler has become a legend of mythic proportions like Odin, Wotan. It's interesting because the Jews have played a large part of keeping the Hitler legend alive in the Western world.

The Jews need Hitler and the holocaust myth to justify their made-in-America, "Chucky Doll" nation that terrorizes the Arab world. Although Hitler failed in his attempt to rid Europe of Jews, his courage to see and speak the truth about the Jewish menace lives on. Perhaps there is justice in the world after all.

Germany was not the only loser in World War Two. It was a victory for world Jewry over white folks everywhere.

All one party States have their day Russia, Germany, eventually China will go by the board.
Greater Judea is likewise a "one party state" - merely engaged in a pretense otherwise.

Germany 33-45 was no godsent , even if you take the war out of it. Was the price asked too high ? I believe it was.
The Germans thought otherwise.

T4, would you wish to be the person doing the killing?
A routine that could be left to others, as is done with trash collection. If necessary, however, I would do it myself.

When the minorities are your own people, those who "don't fit in" or won't "tow the line". (Germans).
Yes. Much as I admire the Japanese, for example, and would enjoy living amongst them as one of them, I understand the propriety of their racist rejection of foreigners and would not expect them to accommodate me and mine.

Inflation was just around the corner, Hitler's answer was to sack those who warned him and close his ears to any such news.
Please name those who supposedly "warned" Hitler and were "sacked".

All major powers expand and die, Germany had been expanding for about 4 - 5 years when the bubble was about to burst. Had it done so before war came about the NS dream would have gone with it, completely and present day views of Hitler would be very different. Apart perhaps from the idea that the "Jews" brought about the ruin of the State. (Which would have been completely untrue).
Hitler arranged to avoid the consequences of inflation through price controls, rationing, and war. There was no prospect, given NS control of the State, of its being ruined by inflation - and no prospect of scapegoating the Jews for other than having made the regime necessary for the attempted salvation of Germany from Judeo-Bolshevism and international Jewish financial control.

Something he did time and time again during the war. (Scape goating).
And sometimes he acknowledged his own errors, as was done in the aftermath of the disaster at Stalingrad.

Hitler did not (could not) learn and that contributed hugely to Germany's defeat.
Hitler was ailing toward the end of the war and became somewhat fixed in his thinking at times. The largest contribution to German defeat and the frustration of German plans, however, was the failure to provide crytographic security for German activities.

I doubt it. germany was not the perfect society you may think it to have been , behind the propaganda image people were aware that freedom had been lost.
The minority groups include germans who did not agree with Goverment Policy , who had no means of voicing their opposition. Any who did cause waves went to places like Dachau , keeping your jead down became an essential surival skill.
Why was there a need to revoe all other political parties from the scene and from the ballot box.
The emergency laws Hitler used to outlaw them he then changed to cement himself in power , in short he abused them , but by that point there was no-one left to say enough, he was complete master , he controlled everything.
Sacking people.
Nemesis page 160.
By late 1938 , the presures of the forced rearmament programme were making themselves accutely felt. The policy of "rearmat any cost" was now plainly showing itself to be suitable only in te short term.
Bottlenecks were building up in critical arreas of the economy. Lack of coherent and comprehensive economic plannign exacerbated them.
Page 161 "When Goring met members of the reichs defence Council at its first meeting on 18th November 1938 he told them "Gentlemen the financial situation looks very critical"
The following month in his diary Goebbels wrote "The financial situation of the Reich is catastrophic. We must look for new ways. It cannot go on like this . Otherwise we will be faced with inflation.
Indeed the massive rearmament programme , stimulating increased demand from ful employment , but without commensurate expansion of consumer goods, was intrinsically inflationary.
Price controls and draconian measures had kept prices in check but they could not be sustained for long.
In early january 1939 , the reichsbank Directorate sent Hitler a submission, supported by eight signatories , emanding financial restraint to avoid the "threatening danger of inflation" Hitlers reaction was " That is munity"
Twelve days later HE SACKED SCHACHT as President of the Reichsbank.
By the time of his sacking the national debt had increased THREE TIMES.
The author goes on to explain that the nations arigcultural out put had fallen by 16% and that this increased presures to import whenthe nation was not runnign a mixed econemy , a decision taken in 1936 to accomadte rearmament, s decision which could not easily be reversed. In short the economy was on borrowed time.
Had war not taken place and inflation had kicked in the Jews would again have been held up as those who were at fault , this would of course have been a lie.
Hitler would not have accepted that his decisions would have been at fault.
There was every danger thaty a NS controlled state would be ruined by inflation which had been brought about by the policy of the Goverment.

As far as T4 goes and the murder of the handicaped you have obviously not seen death close up , I wil put your own volunteering your services as being due to a lack of experience in life and in death.
Don't think that it would not leave its mark on you , believe me it would.

Hitler may have put his hand up and said "Yes" at Stalingrad .
When he denied the Luftwaffe a night fighter force as it would not be needed , when he issued his halt order outside Dunkirk , when he ordered Barbarossa claiming that the russian could not have the reserves they had.
When he cancelled the production and issue of winter uniforms on the grounds of economy , when he ordered the late assult on Moscow.
When he embarked on fall Blue , and then totally screwed up the sitiation , when he commanded an Army group , and then was responsible to himself , as Commander of the Army and thene again to Himself as supreme commander of all germany's armed forces and then was responsible again to himself as head of State , there had to be something wrong !!
An insane situation.
Even after Stalingrad he allowed the Afrika Corp to be surrendered , he almost wrecked Mansteins counter attack, and he order Kursk Offensive too late when it was the wrong move to make. All this in so short a time.
He also made huge errors by interfering with Naval moves which are equally fatal to the war effort.
in short he could not learn , he could not take advice and in each case he had to have a fall guy to cover for his errors.
The largest failing was not Ultra success , it was down to Hitler and the direction he took Germany in and the way he conducted the war , the generals actually ran very little on the few occasions they did they did very well.

I doubt it. Germany was not the perfect society you may think it to have been, behind the propaganda image people were aware that freedom had been lost.
Freedom was understood to have been lost to the demands of national survival and recovery.

The minority groups included Germans who did not agree with Government policy, who had no means of voicing their opposition. Any who did cause waves went to places like Dachau, keeping your head down became an essential survival skill.
As was required in a polity where a substantial minority (second only to the nationalist coalition) had voted Communist (crypto-anarchist).

Why was there a need to revoke all other political parties from the scene and from the ballot box. The emergency laws Hitler used to outlaw them he then changed to cement himself in power. In short, he abused them, but by that point there was no-one left to say enough, he was complete master, he controlled everything.
As was required by the internal and external threat posed by the massive Communist element.

Price controls and draconian measures had kept prices in check but they could not be sustained for long. In early January 1939, the Reichsbank Directorate sent Hitler a submission, supported by eight signatories, demanding financial restraint to avoid the "threatening danger of inflation". Hitlers reaction was "That is munity". Twelve days later HE SACKED SCHACHT as President of the Reichsbank.
Schacht was insubordinate. Hitler had matters in hand in planning to use those inflation-inducing armaments to solve the inflation problem.

Had war not taken place and had inflation kicked in the Jews would again have been held up as those who were at fault, this would of course have been a lie.
Hitler's legitimate charge as to the Jews has already been explained, and Hitler took care of the problem precisely as planned.

There was every danger that a NS-controlled state would be ruined by inflation which had been brought about by the policy of the Government.
A trite objection to the regime, in that the incipient inflation was effected in pursuit of that policy which would have and did relieve that difficulty.

As far as T4 goes and the murder of the handicaped you have obviously not seen death close up, I will put your own volunteering your services as being due to a lack of experience in life and in death. Don't think that it would not leave its mark on you, believe me it would.
Since you know nothing of my personal experiences, your remarks merely reflect your ignorance on the point. *You asked* whether I would do it myself, and now contradict yourself in your mistaken presumption by presuming to answer for me.

...in short, he could not learn, he could not take advice and in each case he had to have a fall guy to cover for his errors. The largest failing was not Ultra success, it was down to Hitler and the direction he took Germany in and the way he conducted the war, the generals actually ran very little - on the few occasions they did, they did very well.
Standard, unsophisticated anti-Hitler propaganda. Hitler's enemies made far grander mistakes (Stalin's decapitation of his officer corps, z.B., the Allied loss of all initial victory objectives by the end of the conflict and the global promotion of Communism), from which fatuities they were delivered only by their far greater combined resources. And Hitler *did* take advice: he brilliantly adopted Manstein's plan for the invasion of France, he allowed Jodl to continue operations as planned in Norway despite his own trepidations, he (unfortunately) followed Goering's suggestions at Dunkirk and Stalingrad, and he participated in many extended debates over operational decisions, most significantly that to take Kiev rather than Moscow. Ultra *was* the critical difference in every late-war theater: Africa (destroying Rommel's supply craft), Atlantic (U-boat location), Normandy (deception), Ostfront (Kursk and Army Group Center, most significantly). The failure of German cryptographic security greatly contributed to Hitler's tendency to suspect incompetence or treason involved in otherwise inexplicable operational failures.

NeoNietzsche,
The information given is sound and from a good source , if you can give any evidence to rebuke it , that is up to you.
Presently you have just expressed doubts as to any of this being possible and the the president of the reicshbank was speaking out of turn by doing his job and warning that all was not well.
I refer you to the quotes from the meeting held by Reichsmarschall goring and from Reichsminister Goebbels diary which you ignore.
Both record and express their own grave concerns , nothing was in hand and the Fuhrer had no answers to the looming problems.
The surrender of freedom is too high aprice to pay for a goverment which was courting inflation and bankruptacy. The country could not afford the rearmament drive at the expense of having nothing to sell on the internetional markets.
The public works schemes could not put money in the Reichsbank , an Autobann could not be sold abroad.

Regarding your own expressions on T4 , I did not reflect back other than your own words.
Only one who has little or no experience of life and death would say ;
" A routine which is left to others as is done with trash collection. If necessary however , I would do it myself". Seems clear enough .(Unless you are refer to emptying bins.).

Stalingrad was a city which could have fallen earlier in the year without the dire struggle which it later became. It became such because Hitler changed his objectives , divided his forces and expected them to do what was impossible.
Goring was wrong to say he could supply 6th Army and Hitler was told that it was impossible.
He did not base his stand order on Goring alone , he had no intention of withdrawing from the city which held Stalin's name.
Everything which came from 1942 was as a result of Hitler's Fall Blue.
The general Staff had already become alarmed that the position of German forces in the S.E of Russia had become dangerously exposed had been ignored. The Fuhrer had eclared that the Russian Army was finished and that they had nothing left.
The Manstein plan for France did not require and master touches from Hitler .
What you fail to mention was Hitlers desire to attack France in the winter of 1940 , which would have been a disaster.
The idea that Ultra had won the war on its own cannot be sustained , and you seek to use it to excuse the major part Hitlers own direction of the war played in Germany's defeat.

The information given is sound and from a good source , if you can give any evidence to rebuke it, that is up to you. Presently you have just expressed doubts as to any of this being possible and the the President of the Reichsbank was speaking out of turn by doing his job and warning that all was not well. I refer you to the quotes from the meeting held by Reichsmarschall Goring and from Reichsminister Goebbels diary which you ignore.
That those who were not privy to (or did not take seriously) Hitler's war plans expressed anxiety over impending inflation is not in dispute.

Both record and express their own grave concerns, nothing was in hand and the Fuhrer had no answers to the looming problems. The surrender of freedom is too high a price to pay for a government which was courting inflation and bankruptcy. The country could not afford the rearmament drive at the expense of having nothing to sell on the international markets. The public works schemes could not put money in the Reichsbank, an Autobann could not be sold abroad.
Hitler had planned on war at least since the writing of Mein Kampf and the re-armament was undertaken with that objective in mind - an objective which would, as happened according to plan, obviate the inflationary pressure involved.

Stalingrad was a city which could have fallen earlier in the year without the dire struggle which it later became. It became such because Hitler changed his objectives, divided his forces and expected them to do what was impossible. Goring was wrong to say he could supply 6th Army and Hitler was told that it was impossible. He did not base his stand order on Goring alone, he had no intention of withdrawing from the city which held Stalin's name.
Nevetheless, he took Goering's (and other's) advice, as was the point contrary to your insistence (" he could not take advice") that he never did such.

Everything which came from 1942 was as a result of Hitler's Fall Blue. The general Staff had already become alarmed that the position of German forces in the S.E of Russia had become dangerously exposed had been ignored. The Fuhrer had declared that the Russian Army was finished and that they had nothing left.
You make the pointless point that Hitler made mistakes such as are made in war.

The Manstein plan for France did not require any master touches from Hitler. What you fail to mention was Hitlers desire to attack France in the winter of 1940, which would have been a disaster.
The point, again, was that Hitler adopted Manstein's plan, i.e., his advice. But since you are fixated on criticizing, rather than understanding, Hitler and his context, you can't keep to the point which you raised yourself ("he could not take advice").

The idea that Ultra had won the war on its own cannot be sustained, and you seek to use it to excuse the major part Hitler's own direction of the war played in Germany's defeat.
It is an astounding credit to Hitler's genius that he came so close to victory against superior, and later, overwhelming enemy resources aided by the compromise of German signal security which predated his regime.

What other options did he have , Manstein's plan was the best there was , it was the only show in town.
He "adopted it" after he made a few changes ( ego!).
Are you seriously telling me that "everything was going to plan".
That Hitler was prepared for WW2 when Poland was supported by France and GB ? Even Hitler was surprised.
Plans for war , it came as a bluff that failed.
Do you expect that Goring was not included in the inner circle ? he expresed anxiety and concern as to the prospect of inflation and money problems , this was not what took Hitler to war , your assertion is way off .
Hitler did not expect war in 39 , he certainly did not go to war because it would solve the money problems of the Reich.
Zeitler certainly was not saying Stalingrad could be supplied , neither was Jeschonnek or Richthofen.
The Generals expected the Army to be allowed to breakout.
Goring was full of hot air , everyone knew that 6th Army could not be supplied.
It would seem that the only two who went along with this was Goring and Hitler.
Name say two other senior Commanders who thoguht it a viable option.
If you say Keitel , I can assure you I will laugh.

If I may give you the thoughts of Luftwaffe General Richthofen.

Early in the morning of 24th November , the hopes of all the generals involved in the fate of the 6th Army were firmly dashed. Another Fuhrer decision reached Paulus's headquarters at 08.30 a.m.. In it , the boundaries of what Hitler now termed " Fortress stalingrad" were clearly laid down. The front on the Volga was to be held "whatever the circumstances".
Zeitler had been confident the evening before that Hitler was coming to his senses. Now , the fuhrer demonstrated induditably that the opinion of all the generals counted for nothing. their feelings were summed up by Richthofen in his diary when he wrote that they had become nothing more than " highly paid NCO'S". Hitlers notion of the power of the will had completely parted company with military logic. He was fixated with the idea that if the 6th Army withdrew from Stalingrad , the Wehrmacht would never return. He had sensed that this was the high water mark of the Third Reich. Also rather pertinently in the case of such an egomanic , his personal pride was at starke after his boasts about Stalin's city during the Munich Bierkeller speech less than two weeks before."
Beevor's "Stalingrad." p270-71.
Your idea that goring and oters advised Hitler is a delusion , the only people who were in favour Hitler and Goring.
( If you can name two other senior commanders please quote your sources ).

To describe fall Blue as " such mistakes as are made in war" is an understatement of proportions , the like of which you have no actual understanding of , its folly in the extreme , not a mistake.
A mistake anyone can make , Blue was much , much more.

Hitlers genius which you say was beatn by the Enigma / Ultra secret.
Would this be the same genius which gave brith to the offensive in the "Bulge" , the offensive in eastern Europe in March 45 , the mortain offensive in Normandy which he was warned would fail.
The loss of Army group Centre in 1944 , the loss of Panzer Army Afrika.
( Which Rommel wanted withdrawn long before Tunis).
The hold order at Alamein.
These are only a few , your arguement of Ultra is bankrupt and it alone would not provide an assurance that the war would be won.
taking advice is one thing , yes he heeded Goring and ignored everyone else , making decisions on good advice is more important than making them based on advice which everyone esle was in horror of. Genius , I think not.

Had he called quits in 1938 he might have gone down as a great man , had he not been such a monster towards his own people e.g. the one party state , T4 , his mistreatment of minority groups and his laws of Blood and Honour etc.

Lol, a "monster towards his own people". Yeah, he really did harm "towards his own people" with the racial preservation laws and the deportation of Communists into concentratio camps, and the Germans desired after 1933 nothing more than the exciting political "pluralism" of the Weimar Republic, didn't they?

No "leader" of a Western "democracy" was ever loved by his people even approximately as much as Adolf Hitler was by the Germans.

What other options did he have, Manstein's plan was the best there was, it was the only show in town. He "adopted it" after he made a few changes (ego!).
Nevertheless, your point stands refuted, and you continue to resort to tangential issues for an attack on Hitler that is obsessive and prejudicial.

Are you seriously telling me that "everything was going to plan".
Yes, in that a war was going to be conducted in any case, and so the emergence of inflation was not a concern in terms of Hitler's plans and his requirement for uninformed obedience to orders (to Schacht, in particular) not to pursue the issue.

That Hitler was prepared for WW2 when Poland was supported by France and GB ? Even Hitler was surprised.
Hitler was preparing to initiate a war. How it came about is irrelevant to the point which you maintain in error and insist upon attempting to divert attention from.

Do you expect that Goring was not included in the inner circle? He expressed anxiety and concern as to the prospect of inflation and money problems, this was not what took Hitler to war, your assertion is way off . Hitler did not expect war in '39, he certainly did not go to war because it would solve the money problems of the Reich.
Your remarks are incoherent. But I take it that you are inattentively imputing to me the argument that Hitler went to war to solve the inflation problem. No - and again - Hitler was fundamentally, programatically committed to war from at least the days of Mein Kampf, and thus the epiphenomenal effects of rearmament were the price of that program, which was self-corrective in this regard, assuming the measure of success which was, in fact, attained in the war.

Zeitler certainly was not saying Stalingrad could be supplied, neither was Jeschonnek or Richthofen. The Generals expected the Army to be allowed to breakout. Goring was full of hot air, everyone knew that 6th Army could not be supplied. It would seem that the only two who went along with this was Goring and Hitler. Name say two other senior Commanders who thought it a viable option. If you say Keitel , I can assure you I will laugh.
Milch was brought in - too late as it happens - and demonstrated with his partial success in re-organizing the airlift that it *had* been possible, in principle, to effect an airlift that would have sustained Stalingrad in German hands until Manstein could get there on the ground.

Your idea that Goring and others advised Hitler is a delusion, the only people who were in favour [were] Hitler and Goring. (If you can name two other senior commanders please quote your sources ).
The participation of Milch in vindication of Hitler and Goring has been explained. That Hitler, as has many a leader, may have taken the advice that he wanted to hear *does* diminish the point, which nevertheless stands, that Hitler *was* willing to take advice, contrary to your obsessive, unbalanced criticism.

To describe Fall Blue as "such mistakes as are made in war" is an understatement of proportions, the like of which you have no actual understanding of, it's folly in the extreme, not a mistake. A mistake anyone can make, Blue was much, much more.
In your blindingly prejudiced view of the matter, with the wisdom of hindsight in your favor.

Hitler's genius which you say was beaten by the Enigma/Ultra secret. Would this be the same genius which gave birth to the offensive in the "Bulge", the offensive in eastern Europe in March '45, the Mortain offensive in Normandy which he was warned would fail.
You forgot to mention Spain, Russia, and Waterloo in supposed refutation of Napoleon's genius. And Napoleon was not even led to those latter-day difficulties and desperation by systematically compromised communications, as was Hitler.

The loss of Army group Centre in 1944, the loss of Panzer Army Afrika. (Which Rommel wanted withdrawn long before Tunis).
Both events to the credit of Ultra.

The hold order at Alamein.
One point in your favor. Hitler mistakenly attempted to re-apply the relatively successful hold order against the Soviet counter-offensive of '41-'42.

These are only a few, your argument of Ultra is bankrupt, and it alone would not provide an assurance that the war would be won.
I assume that English is not your native language, and that the incoherence of your remarks is to that account. Otherwise I would assume that you are brain-damaged.

Yes, in that a war was going to be conducted in any case, and so the emergence of inflation was not a concern in terms of Hitler's plans and his requirement for uninformed obedience to orders (to Schacht, in particular) not to pursue the issue.

Inflation: That only happens in "free market societys" (Capitalism). We had a state directed and economy. The Bankers allready japped about Inflation and crashing of our economic system in the year 1935. Nothing happend as you know.
there were price-boards which regulated the prices of goods. Not the "market" regulated the prices or the loans, but these boards. the flow of money was also state controlled. Exporting our currency outside of the country and exchanging it was outlawed. We created a very successfull third economic system, besides capitalism and marxism.



Hitler was preparing to initiate a war. How it came about is irrelevant to the point which you maintain in error and insist upon attempting to divert attention from.

I don't understand why you are spreading such lies? the only ones eager for War were the plutocrats and Jews in the West. Even if someone takes the writting of "Mein Kampf" (from the year 1924!) seriously, then there is no mention of starting a war in there.
You should learn to differentiate between the words of a powerless opossition politician, who is attempting to whipp up the emotions of a humiliated and defeated Nation and that of a responcible politician, who holds the fate of 75 Million people in his hands.



No - and again - Hitler was fundamentally, programatically committed to war from at least the days of Mein Kampf, and thus the epiphenomenal effects of rearmament were the price of that program, which was self-corrective in this regard, assuming the measure of success which was, in fact, attained in the war.


See above. As to "rearment". I dont know why people consider this so militaristic and a sign of War-Mongering. The West-German Bastardstate "FRG" had in the 80ys a 500.000 strong Army. East-Germany around 180.000. Those are more Soldiers than the Kaiser had in peace-time.

Compare the 100.000 Man "Joke" of Versailles, to what our neighbours were able to mobelize. No tanks, no Airforce, No heavy Artillery, No Fleet or high sea subs. Can any responsible politican allowe his country to stay so defenseless and exposed?



Milch was brought in - too late as it happens - and demonstrated with his partial success in re-organizing the airlift that it *had* been possible, in principle, to effect an airlift that would have sustained Stalingrad in German hands until Manstein could get there on the ground.

Stalingrad: "Historians" fail to mention, that it was Manstein who supported Hitlers hold-orders at Stalingrad, because it was esential that they hold the soviets on the spot, and allowe the Armys of the Kaukasus to reatreat. If the Soviets would have reached Rostov, then Stalingrad would have been a joke compared to the total collapse of the southern and herewith the entire Easter-Front.


Otherwise I would assume that you are brain-damaged.

He's not "brain damaged". He's a Jew - and that explains just about everything.

Inflation: That only happens in "free market societys" (Capitalism). We had a state directed and economy. The Bankers allready japped about Inflation and crashing of our economic system in the year 1935. Nothing happend as you know.


All that is required for inflation is for the amount of currency in circulation to increase relative to the amount of goods in circulation. I don't see how a state run economy is inherently immune to this phenomenom. "Fractional reserve" banking inherently causes inflation but as far as I know the 3rd Reich did not have a "100% reserve" policy for banks.

Your points lose when you believe that the President of the Reichsbank on see impending problems warned his leader in writing that changes had to be made if inflation was not to become a major problem.
For this he was sacked.
You are quite ill informed when you believe that Hitler was prepared for war against the Western powers in 1939.
He had told raedar that there was plewnty of time for expansion of the kreigsmarine in that he did not see any conflict with GB before 1943-4 , which was what four years after 1939 , seems you are running on a different time scale than Hitler was.
Dr. Brandt has been proved wrong by the written warning from the President reicshbank to The Fuhrer , inflation could occur and was a looming problem.
I refer you again to Goring and to Goebbels as prime sources .
( The letter from PRB apart).

As far as my being totally anti-Hitler as a military Commander goes , unfortunately for Germany he was totally out of his depth .

I would agree with Dr. Brandt in that the longer that 6 th Army held out the better the chances of repairing the damage caused and preventing even greater problems.

Sadly for 6th Army and for the forces sent to SE Russia the Army was more than a little concerned that they could be cut off and saw it all coming.
Hitler would have none of it , he saw the war as almost being over.

had 6th Army been given freedom to manouvre as soon as they were sorrounded they would have been able to save something of the Army.
As time went on this was impossible.
The Soviets efended in depth against any attempted relief.
The idea that manstein could have made it to them on the ground and that airlife could have sustained them , well as history records both failed.
So I don't know what "Neo N." is trying to say.
Its recorded fact that manstein did attempt to breakthrough and that Paulus was ordered to say put , his tanks had to withdraw as they themselves faced destruction.
NN - no going to get involved in a slanging match , no not brain damaged , nor was I dropped at birth. Your own ability to understand history is slightly out.
I would suggest that you read up on the situation around Stalingrad and the Southern sector of the eastern Front.
Check out again on the airlift and the shortage of transport aircraft and the pressed use of unsuitable aircraft in that role.
Also look at Mansteins relief effort and judge again how you might say that the airlift could have worked and that Mansteins force could have reached Stalingrad. In theory many things are possible , in rality you have to work in terms of what can be done , not what might be done.
BTW Manstein stated that he could not reach Stalingrad unless the troops inside attacked east to meet him , in this he was proved correct.

As far as hindsight goes the Army didn't want to go South . Moscow was where they thought the attack should have gone.
Even with hindsight you are still drawing the wrong answers.
The defeat of Stalin's Spring offensive and the defeat of his Winter offensive to cut off all German forces in Southern Russia formed the template for how Manstein urged that future operations against the Russians should be conducted. (Hitler did not take his davice.)

MAnsteins own offensive which he argued hard for was almost wrecked by Hitler becoming alarmed that he should give up ground , estiblish a better front , free up forces , withdraw from Kharkov , and allow the russians to advance until the time was right to take them in the flanks.
MAnstein saw this , hitler could not.
And you try to tell me that Hitler was who understand what Manstein had planned for France ? Sorry I can't buy into this.
Track record on advice , little sense in taking it if you can't evaluate what you are being given.
Not good.

Your points lose when you believe that the President of the Reichsbank on see[ing]impending problems warned his leader in writing that changes had to be made if inflation was not to become a major problem. For this he was sacked.
Schacht was told to shut up in obedience to orders, but was not told that Hitler's plans for war were going to take care of the problem. Schacht was not willing to take it on faith that Hitler was going to take care of it and became insubordinate. For this he was sacked.

You are quite ill-informed when you believe that Hitler was prepared for war against the Western powers in 1939.
You are quite inept as an interlocutor when you consistently misrepresent my views. I did not write that Hitler was prepared for war against the Western powers in '39 - merely that he was preparing for war as promised in Mein Kampf, which involved the conquest of Lebensraum in Russia. Hitler hoped and expected to reach a reasonable accommodation with the English in facilitation of this objective. Hitler and his staff determined that the timing of his movement to the East, on the other hand, was appropriate in view of the extant favorable balance of forces, which was expected to deteriorate with time.

The idea that Manstein could have made it to them on the ground and that airlife could have sustained them, well as history records both failed.
Do tell. The point, in refutation of your diabolization of Hitler, is that Milch vindicated Hitler and Goering in demonstrating that a successful airlift could have been achieved. That success would have diminished the strength of the Soviet envelopment and made Manstein's penetration possible.

The defeat of Stalin's Spring offensive and the defeat of his Winter offensive to cut off all German forces in Southern Russia formed the template for how Manstein urged that future operations against the Russians should be conducted. (Hitler did not take his advice.)
Because he could no longer strategically tolerate the constant mobilization of the military frontier as Manstein required for tactical success. Hitler brought in Model as his defensive specialist in hopes of solidifying the front.

And you try to tell me that Hitler was who understand what Manstein had planned for France? Sorry I can't buy into this. Track record on advice, little sense in taking it if you can't evaluate what you are being given. Not good.
Suggesting that Hitler failed to understand Manstein's plan, which Hitler selected, simply betrays your prejudice.

NN , you miss the point.
1. Inflation was a real threat , Goring knew it , Goebbels reflected it , Schacht knew it better than any of them .he had done what he could to make it possible for Germany to fund by whatever means he could Hitlers dreams which cost money , money which Germany did not have.
He knew that this could not be sustained , he did his job by warning Hitler.
The time scale of war , the inflation warned about would have arrived before Hitler was ready for war , that it happened in 39 was something Hitler had not planned for. Germany would have gone broke sooner rather than later.
You don't seem to realise this . Hitler knew nothing about international banking or running a nations bank books , your faith in him is admirable but its totally misplaced and daft.
The expectation of a settlement was based on the idea that GB and France would not be at war with Germnay when he moved on Poland. had they let Poland go the infaltion time bomb would have gone off before much longer , Germany would have gone broke.
For heavans sake don't you understand , she had nothing to export worth talking about .e.g limited income and maxium spending which was going on arms .= nations goes broke.
The point I was trying to make. You believe that Hilter had real military ability.
I was illustrating my point by saying that Hitler, who e saw no advantage in trading ground , he could not se what Manstein was setting up in Southern Russia , he just could not see it. Hitler was a man of very limited vision.
If he could not see and understand this , how in God's name do you believe that he understood the complex plan which destroyed France.
When you look at Blue and the redirection of the Panzer troop which Hitler did , he screws around with it when it was already in motion , for goodness sake NN. do you have the slightest idea of the problems which Hilter introduced into a plan of action which was already flawed and unworkable.
The highly paid NCO's had little choice , for their men if nothing else but to try and make it work , this proved impossible and all the time Hitler was expecting to see results which in reality could not be delivered.
As per usual when things went wrong Scapegoats had to be found, sacking occurred.
I am sorry to say it but you really don't understand much about what went on in Southern russia in 1942-43.
The airlift which you say could have worked in theory.
It would only allow the forces within Stalingard to grow stronger if .
1. Supplies flown in would have to excede 6th Army needs daily needs and would have to do so daily in order to build up a workable reserve.
Food clothing , medical supplies small arms munitions.
In particular fuel and artillery shells , both of which are heavy and require a lot of aircraft to supply them in bulk.
6th Army needed 750 tonnes a day if they were just to surived.
They never got anything like this , so again how in Heavans name do you expect it to have a reserve which would allow it to supply a movement to the east. Further more this reserve would have to have been built up quickly , very quickly if they were to escape and assist manstein.
This makes your idea totally at odds with reality , so much so that i have to think you are not being serious , is this a p*** take .
It has to be. For if you believe this I am inclined to think you are making this up as you go along, its grasping at straws , the sort of belief and thinking which made Stalingrad a reality.
Your point rejecting Mansteins plans and direction are totally flawed.
He wanted Germany to fight a war of defense based on allowing the Russians to do the attacking and using strong , superior forces to take them apart .
This was sound and it was correct .
It allowed the German soldier to work at his best , it offered no vistory but it allowed them the chance to exhaust the Russians and to destroy their moral and belief in their leadership.
It would perhaps have made a seperate peace with Russia possible.
Your idea of a firm defensive line in Russia.
Well tell me just how successful was it ?
He who defends everything defends nothing and so it proved to be.
Do not blame Model , he did not want to leave behind pockets of german troops to defend hopeless psoitions nor did he want to fight along lines which could not be defended. He did want to shorten lines and by doing so provide troops for use rather than have them tied down.
Hitler directed the war, the highly paid NCO's were but bit players.
Again NN you display a limited understanding of the war in the east.

NN, you miss the point.
1. Inflation was a real threat, Goring knew it, Goebbels reflected i , Schacht knew it better than any of them. He had done what he could to make it possible for Germany to fund by whatever means he could Hitler's dreams which cost money, money which Germany did not have. He knew that this could not be sustained, he did his job by warning Hitler. The time scale of war, the inflation warned about would have arrived before Hitler was ready for war, that it happened in '39 was something Hitler had not planned for. Germany would have gone broke sooner rather than later. You don't seem to realise this . Hitler knew nothing about international banking or running a nation's bank books, your faith in him is admirable but its totally misplaced and daft. The expectation of a settlement was based on the idea that GB and France would not be at war with Germany when he moved on Poland. Had they let Poland go, the inflation time bomb would have gone off before much longer, Germany would have gone broke. For heavens sake, don't you understand, she had nothing to export worth talking about, e.g., limited income and maximum spending which was going on arms = nations goes broke.
What you fail to grasp is the obvious point that Germany did not "go broke" - because the war which Hitler planned and executed prevented it. Hitler managed to grasp the obvious point which also eludes you that the acquisition of resources through conquest is *deflationary*. If Poland had been "let go," Hitler would have been off into Russia that much sooner.

The point I was trying to make. You believe that Hitler had real military ability. I was illustrating my point by saying that Hitler, who saw no advantage in trading ground, he could not see what Manstein was setting up in Southern Russia, he just could not see it. Hitler was a man of very limited vision. If he could not see and understand this, how in God's name do you believe that he understood the complex plan which destroyed France.
Hitler's statements to Manstein upon the latter's replacement with Model indicate that Hitler perfectly understood the situation and Manstein's contribution. I repeat that Hitler made it clear that Manstein's requisite constant mobilization of the military frontier was strategically intolerable.

When you look at Blue and the redirection of the Panzer troop which Hitler did, he screwed around with it when it was already in motion, for goodness sake, NN. Do you have the slightest idea of the problems which Hitler introduced into a plan of action which was already flawed and unworkable. The highly-paid NCO's had little choice, for their men if nothing else but to try and make it work, this proved impossible and all the time Hitler was expecting to see results which in reality could not be delivered. As per usual when things went wrong, scapegoats had to be found, sacking occurred.
To the contrary, Hitler acknowledged that he was responsible for the errors committed in Blue.

I am sorry to say it but you really don't understand much about what went on in Southern Russia in 1942-43. The airlift which you say could have worked in theory.
...worked in fact during the brief time that Milch was placed in command of the effort.

Well tell me just how successful was it? He who defends everything defends nothing and so it proved to be. Do not blame Model, he did not want to leave behind pockets of German troops to defend hopeless positions nor did he want to fight along lines which could not be defended. He did want to shorten lines and by doing so provide troops for use rather than have them tied down.
That the no-retreat alternative was adopted and failed proves merely that the Germans could sustain themselves in Russia by no means. Limitless retreat, voluntary or involuntary, was otherwise apparently unavoidable, based on experience.

NN,
You miss the point again.
Hitler would have been taking Germnay to war in what 1939 -1940 against Russia , when inflation might already have arrived. RBP did not write to say you have a year , he was saying you have to act now to prevent.
Rearmanment was far from complete.
This meery day out to Russia you suggest which would have cured all ills.
You are aware that germany had to provide twice the number of Divsions she had when she went to France in 1940 , and even then this was achieve by effectively watering down the Panzer Divisions she had.
You are also aware that Germany was advancing ( as been pinted out on other threads and is amply illustarted by word and photograph in books) that the Wehrmacht was dependent not on modern petrol engineed transpost but by horses and often footslogging infantry. Even in 41 the tanks had to stop to allow the infantry to catch up and to allow for on the spot maintance.
In 42 they had to stop because they could not be supplied with fuel.
Apart from which the railway guage was totally different from that used in Europe.
This would have been total defeat again , your view that war would solve all and Germany would defeat Russia is quite insane. Germany was even less prepared in 39-40 to attack Russia than she was in 41.

Manstein / Model.
You do see that germany defeated Stalin in Spring 1942 at Kharkov and again in Winter of 42-43 around the same ground ?
Both defeats achieved when Russia attacked and germnay counter attacked. " The back hand" as Manstein termed it.
In 1942 Germany was broken completely she lost all she attempted to take as you have agreeed it was all down to Hitler who gave econonic reasons for attacking in the south , promised victory and an end to germnays oil problem , all his war aims cam e to nothing.
Germany almost lost her entire southern wing and would have had it not been for Paul Hausser ignoring the order to hold Kharkov "at all costs" and had Manstein not been allowed to act without Hitlers control , and you will recall he had to assert himself strongly to avoid Hitler wrecking the enterperise.
In 43 most of the ground lost to the Russians save the kursk salient had been retaen.
Manstein wanted to take it back in a limited offensive erly in the year. Hilter would not go with this and repeated delayed the attack until July when it was too late. The new tanks etc which |hitler delayed for came into service untested and with teething problems and failed accordingly. germany was soundlty defeated.
Kursk like Stalingrad was Hilters baby.
He consigned germny to defeat with it.
manstein was saying " we don't have to do this " , its the wrong time , the opportunity has passed , we know they have fortifed the are in depth , we will be taking extremely high losses , we cannot be sure of victory , we should not make this attack , tere are other options, let the russians attack , we can defeat them on ground of our choice.
Hilter attacked for " political reasons" , the victory which would "shine to the world".
Everything happened as Manstein said it would , his attemts to use an alternative plan of attack failed , Hilter would not listen.
All that Guderian had created for a second time was squandered , this as on the back of the loss of everything in Africa, which was the equal or not worse than Stalingrad , again against advice , fighting on ground they could not supply or hold.
Hitler did not see any of this as being his misdirection , he scape goated with glea and said that " National Socialist Spirit" was required.
When he brough Model in in 1944 not 43 he had already been faced with te aboslute reality of the situation by manstein , in that massive retreat would have to be undertaken to allow German troops to defend properly.
Hitlers answer was to bring in Model and to try and hold every foot of ground, often against Models advice. Model was not a general , he was as i havesaid to you time and time again , a highly paid NCO who had limited authority to employ his ability.
Did Rundstedt not say something similar in that he had "little more authority than to change the guard at his own from gate".

As far as the airlift went, you are in a fools paradice. It never worked even in a limited fashion. To do what you saywas required it would have to haveworked as i stated , it never did and what is more you know that.
I do again say that your arguements must be a p*** take , they just cannot be serious.

Your end statement that based on experience german must be defeated by russia, based on experience Manstein showed that it was possible to extract a toll on Russian attacks and that he might have been able to offer and alternative. This was rejected in favour of the grand egomanic offensives which Germany could not afford attacks in military terms " for political reasons" are insane.

NN, You miss the point again. Hitler would have been taking Germany to war in what 1939 -1940 against Russia, when inflation might already have arrived. RBP did not write to say you have a year, he was saying you have to act now to prevent.
It is becoming tiresome to have to constantly repeat irrefutable points: Germany was at war in '39-'40 - inflationary pressures were being compenstated by the deflationary effect of material acquisitions in war. RBP was proven wrong and Hitler correct.

Rearmament was far from complete.
Again, it was determined that the initiation of hostilities by the Germans was indicated by the then-current trend in relative strengths. In that sense, rearmament was at its optimum level ("complete") for purposes of prevailing in combat.

Germany was even less prepared in '39-'40 to attack Russia than she was in '41.
Irrelevant to the point regarding inflation. Your bias, ad hominem, continues to misdirect you from the point and toward any tangential criticism of Hitler.

Hitler did not see any of this as being his misdirection, he scape-goated with glee and said that " National Socialist Spirit" was required.
The effect of Ultra, in contributing an inexplicable element to the defeat of German operations in Africa and Kursk, led Hitler to reasonable suspicions of treason and incompetence. The fact that Hitler's appreciation of the prospects was not as sophisticated as that of Manstein does not mean that these operations were intrinsically doomed. The latter perspective is self-serving post-hoc propaganda and is not born out by the facts, where Manstein, himself, wished to continue Citadel beyond the point where Hitler felt the need to withdraw in support of resistance to the invasion of Italy.

As far as the airlift went, you are in a fools paradise. It never worked even in a limited fashion. To do what you say was required it would have to have worked as I stated, it never did and what is more you know that. I do again say that your arguements must be a p*** take, they just cannot be serious.
As it is evident that you have been educated in none but anti-Hitler propaganda, it's no surprise that you are ignorant of the account of Milch's participation. Please consult The Rise and Fall of the Luftwaffe, by David Irving, for your instruction and introduction to balanced accounts of "Hitler's War".

Your end statement that based on experience Germany must be defeated by Russia, based on experience Manstein showed that it was possible to extract a toll on Russian attacks and that he might have been able to offer an alternative. This was rejected in favour of the grand egomaniac offensives which Germany could not afford. Attacks in military terms " for political reasons" are insane.
Because of Ultra, the net overall result of German operations was always going to be, and was found by experience to have been, less than reasonable calculations projected. Faced with this inevitability of constant retreat, even given Manstein's tactically successful exercise of strategically objectionable mobile warfare, Hitler, in desperation, decided to make a stand. I remind you of the parallel with the desperation of Napoleon's final years.

EYTYXEITE!
ADOLF HITLER WAS SIMPLY A SYMBOL OF HIS NATION, THE 13TH GOD OF ANCIENT WORLD AND UNIQUE OF MODERN!
Kindest Regards!

No for me Hitler is not a symbol of Germany , I can think of better men from 39-45.

NN Yes it is indeed becoming tiresome.
Manstein only wanted to continue with Citadel to try and damage the Soviet offensive which was bound to follow. the actual operation , at that time he ws against. the moment had passed , the opportunity lost.
Manstein was proved to be correct , Hitler on the other hand , par for the course.

Stalingrad. how can you even begin to think that the airlift was in anyway remotely going to successful. Events proved otherwise.
Goring by Irving page 367-69 , the soviet advance to the weest is quoted as what thwarted the airlift.
This is not completely true , the aircraft did not exist in numbers , they could not sustain any losses , not enough transport aircraft existed to being with.
The distance , if the Read Army could cut off Stalingrad to isolate the 6th would be a natural step to follow , not hindsight , common sense.
You have of course read the sentence which corectly says that "political pride" made Hitler decide on his course of action, the speech refered to is that which i mentioned to you in Munich a few weeks earlier.
As far as war went in 39-40 against russia ( had the West stayedout) , Germany would not have won , the inflation would not have mattered .
It would have come to pass , that much is certain.
You use Ultra as a means of explaining Germany's defeat.
Ultra did not put fighters and strike aircraft on Malta , Ultra did not stop the fall of Crete.
Ultra did not make the Luftwaffe unable to provide transport aircraft to for Stalingrad.
Ultra was not the pandoras box that you declare to have been.
Germany was doing almost was well with Allied codes as the Allies were with the German ones ,eg the RN and MN. codes were totally compromised , this did not win the war for the kreigsmarine, even when "Shark" was denying the code breakers any enigma decrypts.( This lasted for well over a year).
The "despairation of making a stand" arguement might be have some hope , if he made a stand based on reasonable conduct of defensive warfare.
( Which he did not .)
Time and time again leave to withdraw to better ground was made to both save troops and free up men , time and time again it was ignored.
You delude yourself to think that Model was directing anything.
Mansteins use of what they had left was sound , Hilters idea was hold everything and give not an inch was outdated. It was the stuff of "Little Big Horn"
Who paid the price , the German soldier did.
Hitler and NB do have some parralels when Russia is concerned, both had no idea where the war was to end , there was no goal post.
They both totally under estimated what they took on , your idea that German could have successfully conducted a war again Russia in 1939-40 is quite wrong.
Inflation would have overtaken them before Germany was ready for war.

EYTYXEITE!
Dear Cerberus, maybe you are right in many points but don't forget that Fuhrer received a 7 member "Partei" improving it to a ...Continent! And many decades after Fuhrer is in front pages followed by a lot dedicated to his Memory!
Nobody else from modern 'politicians" had this hounor!
Kindest Regards!

EYTYXEITE!
Sorry to use this space in order to manage attachments but, unfortunately there is no specific thread for Collectors. i think it's time to organize such a thread, in this Forum...
It is an Arno Breker's work with the face of 13th God of ancient World and the unique of modern! A holy profile for the white Humanity! One of my collectables, private belongings of unser Fuhrer and leader Personalities of Third Reich, as well as other memorabilias.
Kindest Regards!

I would be interested in him myself , but to me if I was going to consider anyone as being a symbol of Germany I would not pick Hitler.
was he typical of Germany or the German people , for me no he was not.
Did he symbolise german greatness and achievement , no .
For me someone like Otto Kretschmer or Michael Wittmann , Christian Tychsen , Jochen Peiper , Paul Hausser , Erwin rommel , Adolf Galland , Mackie Steinhoff , Wolfganag Flack , Wolfgang Schnaufer , Kurt Meyer are more typical of germany in the war years.
No Hitler I would not pick.
Hitler was loyal only to himself , he was not to te German People and certanly not to the German soldier.
I know this will go down like a "Lead Zeppelin" but I feel he used the German People.
Any of the men , worth ten Hitlers.

Hope this is not a giant jpeg , if so i apologise to all.
Computers , I am crap on them !! :mad:

EYTYXEITE!
Dear Cerberus, I agree to you even you forgot HANS-ULRICH RUDEL... but der Fuhrer war der ...Einzige!
Kindest Regards!I would be interested in him myself , but to me if I was going to consider anyone as being a symbol of Germany I would not pick Hitler.
was he typical of Germany or the German people , for me no he was not.
Did he symbolise german greatness and achievement , no .
For me someone like Otto Kretschmer or Michael Wittmann , Christian Tychsen , Jochen Peiper , Paul Hausser , Erwin rommel , Adolf Galland , Mackie Steinhoff , Wolfganag Flack , Wolfgang Schnaufer , Kurt Meyer are more typical of germany in the war years.
No Hitler I would not pick.
Hitler was loyal only to himself , he was not to te German People and certanly not to the German soldier.
I know this will go down like a "Lead Zeppelin" but I feel he used the German People.
Any of the men , worth ten Hitlers.

Yes, quite an outstanding pilot , I prefer " the Black Tulip"/ "The Blonde Knight of Germany". ;)

EYTYXEITE!
Dear Cerberus the matter is too simple: All those were Heroes! During that era ALL those, even the single Soldier was a Hero fighting the enemies of white Nation! The question is: w h o inspired all those? Who p u t the flame of heroism into the veins of those fighters? Answer is only one: ADOLF HITLER, the Hero of History! Without him nothing was possible! Heroes, a lot, are existing today as well in Germany as everywhere! There is not the Fuhrer and Fuhrer is only who writes History. History is not written by the mass!
We have to honour that Fuhrer as well as den kommende Mann!
Kindest Regards!

Dear Aristotle,
Sorry I forgot Rudel , yes brave men all but I doubt that hitler as an individual inspired them or that any of them though of Hitler when executing their duty.
I don't think they thought of " the white race" either.
All soldiers first think of their comrade and not letting him down.
My own humble view is that these men and the German People deserved a leader of better quality than Adolf Hitler who ultimately said the German people had failed him , and who when in an arguement with Guderian shouted that he had been let down by the commander and the troops got short shift from Guderian and quite rightly so.
Hitler on the contrary had little concern for the courage and loss of so many soldiers.